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Complete Works > Volume 7 > Conversations and Dialogues > From the Diary of a Disciple > scc_ii:

Whatever man knows to be the truth is of a like nature: some are lesser truths, others, higher ones in comparison with them, while the Absolute Truth is God alone. This Atman is altogether dormant in matter; in man, designated as a living being, It is partially conscious; while in personages like Shri Krishna, Buddha, and Shankara the same Atman has reached the superconscious stage. There is a state even beyond that, which cannot be expressed in terms of thought or language.

Swami Vivekananda said that there is a stage even beyond that of Krishna! I know of the highest state as knowledge of Nirguna Brahman, what is the state even beyond that?

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    Well, "superconscious" refers to the Turiya state described in the Mandukya Upanishad, which I discuss here: hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/4079/36 So perhaps this is a reference to the Turiyatita state I asked about here: hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/8944/36 It's described in the Shaiva Agamas as something superior to the state of realization that the Vedanta school strives for. – Keshav Srinivasan♦ Apr 20 '16 at 15:36
  • Vivekananda was referring to Nirguna Brahman. See Gita 7.24 and Gita 8.20-21. – Swami Vishwananda Apr 21 '16 at 9:45
  • @SwamiVishwananda Well according to Swami Vivekananda, Krishna belonged to super conscious state so is he trying to say that Krishna hasn't yet reached the absolute state? – Chinmay Sarupria Apr 21 '16 at 10:12
  • @ChinmaySarupria The superconscious state that Krishna etc reached is the Saguna Brahman. The 'state even beyond that' is the Nirguna Brahman. Incarnations of God, of Iswara, are of Saguna Brahman. The Turiya is Nirguna Brahman. – Swami Vishwananda Apr 22 '16 at 7:45
  • Interesting question. I'm not sure what he is referring to, because he says 'Atman has reached'. @SwamiVishwananda Swamiji why do you interpret it as Saguna Brahman. Because Saguna Brahman is a super-imposition of our Avidhya on top of Nriguna Brahman, so 'reaching' Saguna Brahman is impossible since within the realm of Maya, Ishvara is always different from you. Upon breaking Maya, one realizes his Nirguna nature isn't it? Incarnations of God are of Saguna Brahman, no doubt, however to say that 'Atman has reached the superconscious stage' refers to a jiva reaching the state of Ishvara?? – Sai Apr 22 '16 at 16:16
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Swami Vivekananda seems to be referring to the highest stage of Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

Do you know what I mean? Think of Brahman, Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute, as a shoreless ocean. Through the cooling influence as it were, of the bhakta's love, the water has frozen at places into blocks of ice. In other words, God now and then assumes various forms for His lovers and reveals Himself to them as a Person. But with the rising of the sun of knowledge, the blocks of ice melt. Then one doesn't feel any more that God is a Person, nor does one see God's forms. What He is can not be described. Who will describe Him? He who would do so disappears. He cannot find his 'I' anymore.

If one analyzes oneself, one doesn't find any such thing as 'I'. Take an onion, for instance. First of all peel off the red outer skin; then you find thick white skins. Peel these off one after the other, and you won't find anything inside.

In that state a man no longer finds the existence of his ego. And who is there left to seek it? Who can describe how he feels in that state - in his own Pure Consciousness - about the real nature of Brahman? There is a sign of Perfect Knowledge. Man becomes silent when It is attained. Then the 'I', which may be likened to the salt doll, melts in the ocean of Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute and becomes one with It. Not the slightest distinction is left.

The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, Chapter 6, The Master with the Brahmo Devotees (I), October 28, 1882 translated by Swami Nikhilananda

Sri Madhusudhan Saraswati mentions in his introductory remarks in Gudartha Deepika (commentary on the Gita) that there are 3 stages of Nirvikalpa Samadhi. In the first stage the Yogi can come out of Nirvikalpa Samadhi on his own. In the second stage the Yogi needs some one else to drag him out of Nirvikalpa Samadhi. There is a higher stage where the Yogi can not come out of Samadhi and dies. Obviously it is not possible for a spiritual teacher to operate from the third stage. Even the most advanced teacher operates from either the second or the first stage. Swami Vivekananda and Sri Ramakrishna are talking of the third stage of Nirvikalpa Samadhi when they talk of the highest stage.

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Was Swami Vivekananda actually a Siddha or a fully perfected being equal to God? Perhaps maybe, but right now I don't think so.

He was probably a higher being, my personally feeling is that he was not fully perfected and did not achieve a nature equal to God.

So I don't know if what he says is really true or only partially true or knowledge gained from hammered reasoning or speculation rather than gained from directly observing the truth.

From my personal observation it seems that a human can be fully infused with the unborn even while the body is alive, but that unborn is still separate, independent, and not subject to change like body, senses, perception, etc...are so I'm not sure what Vivekananda is talking about.

The other higher "states" are states, temporary, transient, subject to change, but the unborn is not like a "state".

Here are my personal experiences:

  • One day I meditated and achieved the state of deep relaxation or tranquility and I thought in my mind "this must be what enlightenment is like, perfect relaxation, peace"...but something still didn't feel right, deep down inside I knew that I wasn't really that happy
  • Another day I imagined everything as a dream, and felt this type of spiritual bliss in my head (ajna chakra) and then I thought in my mind "this must be what enlightenment is like, a strange type of bliss"....but something still didn't feel right, deep down inside I knew that I wasn't really that happy
  • Then another day I focused and concentrated my mind on destroying the painful feelings inside of me, and kept doing this trying to root out my own deepest darkest insecurities then I felt this energy go from my forehead to above the top of my head and I felt it, full of confidence, doubtless, fearless, sorrowless, full of extreme enjoyment...and I knew this was it, the right path. I saw how the other "states" I achieved were merely temporary transient feelings, and I saw how this "state" was not actually a "state" since it was not composed of energy subject to change.

So from my personal experiences I can see how humans can easily mistakenly think themselves as being enlightened, a Siddha, a fully perfected being, it is quite easy.

Now given my current condition I can enter into higher states (with the energy at the top of my head ajna chakra) within 5 second or less while waking, it still takes me more effort and time to raise the energy higher above the ajna chakra. I still don't believe myself to be a fully perfected being because I see many painful feelings left inside of me, right now I believe that I'm in between a normal human and a fully perfected being.

It was only through monitoring my bodily feelings and detecting unconscious thoughts and painful feelings inside of me could I distinguish if I had achieved perfection or not....if I hadn't done this I wouldn't be able to tell.

I also see how without much effort I can scientifically prove things like an afterlife, multiple timelines, karma, etc...as really real (through repeatable experiments)...but I wonder if the world is really ready for such things being undeniably scientifically proven...maybe not yet.

You see this time-period we live in is quite unique. Only since around the 17th Century or so has the scientific method and Newtonian physics been known.

What this means essentially is that the next fully perfected being that arises on Earth, that decides to teach, should be able to scientifically prove their claims.

A true statement will stand up to any amount of criticism and scrutiny. A fully perfected being should be able to without much effort scientifically prove their claims so that the proof stands up to any amount of criticism.

Notice how true teachers of the past like Krsna, Buddha, and Jesus never feared criticism or questioning, knowing their ways as true. But the scientific method wasn't known throughout the world during their times like how it is now.

This means the next fully perfected one that arises on Earth and decides to become a world-teacher will likely start a golden age on Earth.

Maybe if one day I achieve perfection I might become a world-teacher or decide to remain hidden and unknown from the world.

After developing a little bit of concentration I was able to use this ability to heal myself of negative health conditions whenever sick with ease as well, it's very useful....works more effectively than modern medicine.

So in my personal opinion, what Swami Vivekananda is referring to may or may not be true.

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  • "Only since around the 17th Century or so has the scientific method and Newtonian physics been known" That's because Kali Yuga ended, that's the time when ascending Dwapara Yuga started, Sri Yukteswar mentions about it in his book "The Holy Science". – Chinmay Sarupria Aug 3 '16 at 5:34
  • Other than that I disagree with everything you said. You should watch this video by Sri M, he talks about Swami Vivekananda. To me, Swami Vivekananda looks like a world teacher, a true world teacher. Anyone can heal themselves of negative health conditions with the power of will. Swami Vivekananda said "you are the master of the body", whenever people get sick, they just lie down on bed and that is the cause for further illness, instead they should never allow the disease to get hold of them in the first place by the power of sheer will! – Chinmay Sarupria Aug 3 '16 at 8:32
  • If you instruct your body to remain disease free, it will. "What you think is what you become". Think you are sick and you will become sick. This is the eternal law of nature. You were never imperfect, as Swami Vivekananda said - realize the divinity within you. You are the glorious children of immortality! – Chinmay Sarupria Aug 3 '16 at 8:34
  • @ChinmaySarupria Hi I don't have anything against Vivekananda I just doubt that he was anything more than a good-natured human with wisdom (who achieved higher states, possibly). When I read his teachings I agree with a lot of what he says but it doesn't seem like He was anything more than a good-natured human. It is possible for someone who hasn't achieved perfection to achieve a lot, say true things, and even have superhuman abilities. – TheSage Aug 10 '16 at 2:39
  • This answer seems to be just personal opinion. – Pradip Gangopadhyay Mar 14 '18 at 10:34

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