Recently i saw an answer posted by an user of this forum (User 808) on Oct 24, 2014. He started his answer like this:
"Please read the Mahabharata carefully. Also, the puranas Srimad bhagavatham, Varaha Purana, Padma purana, Garuda Purana, Matsya Purana etc....In all these puranas there upmteen number of instances where Shiva Worshipped Vishnu or Krishna or Rama as the Supreme Lord.
Mahabharata clearly says
mahAdevaH sarvamedhe mahAtmA hutvA AtmAnaM devadevo babhUva
This clearly indicates that Rudra Performed Sarvamedha yagna and prayed to Lord Vishnu to become Mahadeva."
In response to this I would like to suggest him to read the Mahabharata more carefully. He cited a verse stating Mahadeva prayed to Lord Vishnu to become Mahadeva. But there is another verse in the Mahabharata depicting Mahadeva blessing Lord Vishnu to become Lord Narayana. Here the verse is given below:
matprasādān manuṣyeṣu devagandharvayoniṣu
aprameyabalātmā tvaṃ nārāyaṇa bhaviṣyasi
( Mahabharata, Drona Parva, Book 7, Chapter CLXXII, verse No. 74 )
By the grace of me you will become Nārāyaṇa with unending strength among the deities, humans and Gandharvas
He has not given the location of his cited verse. But I have given the same in detail for the verse I cited above. He can find it in any authentic version of the Mahabharata. He is also requested to keep this in mind that the BORI has included this verse in their Critical Edition of the Mahabharata as the authentic work of Sage Veda Vyasa. He can NEVER call it interpolation
He has cited a verse from the Shanti Parva of the Mahabharata stating Lord Siva is the son of Lord Brahma which read as below:
atha tatrAsatas tasya caturvaktrasya dhImataH
lalATaprabhavaH putraH ziva AgAd yadRcchayA
AkAzenaiva yogIzaH purA trinayanaH prabhuH
“While the four-faced Brahma of great intelligence was seated there, his son Siva, who had sprung from his forehead encountered him one day in course of his wanderings through the universe. In days of yore, the Three-eyed Siva endued with puissance and high Yoga, while proceeding along the sky, beheld Brahma seated on that mountain”
In this context I will cite another excerpt from the same Shanti Parva which he also has gladly mentioned :
“To this, Krishna replies,
Krishna —
Under my protection, you have won a great victory in Battle. Know, O Son of Kunti, that he whom you saw going before you in battle was none other than Rudra also known as Devadeva and Kapardin. They say he is Kala (time or reckoner of death for souls), Born of my Wrath. Those foes you have slain were, in fact slain by him. Hence adore with a controlled mind, that Umapati, Devadeva, of immeasurable greatness, Maheswara, the Changeless (in yoga).”
He has GLADLY presented the phrase ‘born of my Wrath’ in bold letters. How then is Lord Siva born out of the wrath of Lord Krishna, when He had already taken birth from Lord Brahma’s forehead as stated in the cited verse in the Brahma-Rudra Dialogue ?
But, in the same Chapter of the Shanti Parva, Lord Krishna has elsewhere said that :
‘ahamAtmA hi lokAnAM vishvAnAM pANDunandana tasmAdAtmAnamevAgre rudraM sampUjayAmyaham’(the Mahabharata, Shanti Parva, 12:342:23)
Meaning: I am the Soul, O son of Pandu, of all the worlds, of all the universe. Rudra, again, is my Soul. It is for this that I always adore him. (As translated by eminent scholar K.M. Ganguly)
How come Lord Rudra springs from Lord Krishna's wrath when He is the soul of Lord Krishna? Does one's soul generate from one's wrath?
In this connection, I will cite another three verses from the Anusashana Parva and the Drona Parva of the Mahabharata and one verse from the Harivamsa:
. “yo ‘sṛjad dakṣiṇād aṅgād brahmāṇaṃ lokasaṃbhavam | vāmapārśvāt tathā viṣṇuṃ lokarakṣārtham īśvaraḥ | yugānte caiva saṃprāpte rudram aṅgāt sṛjat prabhuḥ |” (MBH 13:14:183)
“Thou art he that hadst created from thy right side the Grandsire Brahma, the Creator of all things. Thou art he that hadst created from thy left side Vishnu for protecting the Creation. Thou art that puissant Lord who didst create Rudra (the destroyer deity Kalagni-Rudra) when the end of the Yuga came and when the Creation was once more to be dissolved”.
.“bhIshma UvachA | asakthoham gunAn vakthum mahadevasya dhImatha | yO hi sarva gatho na cha sarvathra drusyathe | brahma vishNu surEsAnAm srushtA cha prabhureva cha | brahmAdaya pisachAntha yam hi deva upasathe | prakruthInAm parathwena purushasya cha ya para | chinthyathe yo yogavidhbhi rishibhi Thathwa darshibhi | aksharam para Brahma asacha sadasacha ya | prakruthim purusham chaiva kshobhayithwa tswathejasa | brahmana masrujath thasmad Dheva dheva prajapathi |” (MBH 13:14:3-6)
“BhIshma said.’I am quite incompetent to recite the virtues of Mahadeva of highest intelligence. He pervades all things in the universe and yet is not seen anywhere. He is the one who created Brahma, Vishnu and other devas, He is their master. All the deities, from Brahma to the Pisachas, adore and worship him. He transcends both Prakriti (Pradhana) and Purusha, he is being meditated upon by great sages who know the truth. He is indestructible and Supreme Brahman. He is both existent and non-existent. Agitating both Prakriti and Purusha by means of His energy, He created there from the universal lord of creatures, viz., BRAHMA”.
“sa eṣa rudra bhaktaś ca keśavo rudra saṃbhavaḥ | kṛṣṇa eva hi yaṣṭavyo yajñaiś caiṣa sanātanaḥ |
sarvabhūtabhavaṃ jñātvā liṅge ‘rcayati yaḥ prabhum | tasminn abhyadhikāṃ prītiṃ karoti vṛṣabhadhvajaḥ |” (MBH 7:172:89-90)”
“Kesava is that devoted worshipper of Rudra who has sprung from Rudra himself. Kesava always worship the Lord Siva, regarding his Phallic emblem to be the origin of the universe. In Kesava is always present that knowledge, in consequence of which he views the identity of Brahman with the: universe and that other knowledge by which the Past, the Present and the Future, the near and the remote, are all seen, as if the whole are before his eyes. The gods, the Siddhas and the great Rishis, adore Kesava for obtaining that highest object in the universe, viz., Mahadeva. The Lord Kesava always worshippeth Siva in the Phallic emblem as the origin of all creatures. The God having the bull for his mark cherisheth greater regard for Kesava”.
In fact Lord Kirshna himself has admitted that he was born from Lord Siva in the following verse of the Harivamsa:
“ahaM brahmA kapilo yo.apyanantaH
putrAH sarve brahmaNashchAtivIrAH |
tvattaH sarve devadeva prasUtA
evaM sarveshaH kAraNAtmA tvamIDyaH ||2-74-34]”
O the lord of lord! Myself, brahma, kapila, ananta (sheSha), all the valiant sons of brahma who conquered over the internal enemies - all are created from you. Hence you are the lord of all. Hence you, the lord of all, are worthy of praise.
Now say, if Lord Vishnu/Krishna and Lord Brahma was born of Lord Siva, how come Lord Siva take birth from them?
Now, coming to the correction of wrong translations of some verses of the Shanti Parva (Chapter 342) of the Mahabharata presented by him in his answer:
“ahamAtmA hi lokAnAM vishvAnAM pANDunandana tasmAdAtmAnamevAgre rudraM sampUjayAmyaham yadyahaM nArchayeyaM vai IshAnaM varadaM shivam AtmAnaM nArchayetkashchiditi me bhAvitaM manaH”
Translation presented by him: O son of Pandu, I am, indeed, the Atma, the indweller of this universe and the worlds. Therefore, I worship myself first, even when I worship Rudra. If I did not worship Rudra, the bestower of boons, in such a way (i.e., worshiping the indwelling Lord first), some would not worship Me, the indwelling Lord, at all - this is my opinion.
Correct Translation ( As per the learned K.M. Ganguly) :
“I am the Soul, O son of Pandu, of all the worlds, of all the universe. Rudra, again, is my Soul. It is for this that I always adore him. If I do not adore the auspicious and boon-giving Isana nobody would then adore my own self.”
‘ Rudra again is my soul’ has NOT been translated in his presented translation.
“na hi me kenachid deyo varaH pANDavanandana iti sa~ncintya manasA purANaM vishvamIshvaram putrArthaM ArAdhitavAn AtmAnaM aham AtmanA”
Translation presented by him:O Son of Pandu, there is, of course, nobody who can grant Me boons. Knowing that well, I worhip Myself, Who am the beginningless and universal power, known as Sarveshvara, for the sake of getting sons.
Correct Translation ( As per the learned K.M. Ganguly) :
“No one else than Rudra is competent to grant me a boon. O son of Pandu. Having settled this in my mind, I adored in days of yore the ancient and puissant Rudra, for obtaining the boon of a son.”
The difference may be seen , the translation presented by him didn't include the phrase ‘No one else than Rudra is competent to grant me boon’.
tasmin hi pUjyamAne vai devadeve maheshvare sampUjito bhavetpArtha devo nArAyaNaH prabhuH
Translation presented by him :It is the Lord, the prabhu, the Narayana IN Maheshvara (the worshipable, the lord of the devas), who is actually worshiped.
Correct Translation ( As per the learned K.M. Ganguly) :
“If that deity of deities, viz., Maheswara, be worshipped, then O Partha, is the puissant Narayana also worshipped.”
Where in this verse it is said “It is the Lord, the prabhu, the Narayana IN Maheshvara”?
na hi viShNuH pranamati kasmai chidvibudhAya tu R^ita AtmAnameveti tato rudraM bhajAmyaham
Translation presented by him : “Indeed Vishnu does not bow to any one and [even when He bows to Himself], for what sake, but for the sake of showing the path to the wise. Therefore, it is the truth that I worship myself even when I worship Rudra.”
Correct Translation ( As per the learned K.M. Ganguly) :
“Vishnu never bows his head unto any deity except his own self. It is for this reason that I adore Rudra, (Rudra being, as I have already told thee, my own self).”
So, it is clear from this verse that Lord Vishnu’s own self is Lord Rudra.
Also, he has cited this verse from the Shanti Parva :
tasmin hi pUjyamAne vai devadeve maheshvare sampUjito bhavetpArtha devo nArAyaNaH prabhuH nArAyaNAtmako GYeyaH pANDaveya yuge yuge
O Arjuna, know that in every yuga, Rudra is 'nArAyaNAtmaka'. (This phrase can mean: one whose indweller is Narayana, one who is always immersed in Narayana.)
The translation of the phrase ‘Narayanatmako’ has been made in the Geeta Press as ‘ Lord Rudra and Lord Narayana should be understood as the same Atman (Self) and I think this interpretation is correct because in the same chapter of the Shanti Parva, it has stated few verse later :
“ rudro nArAyaNashchaiva sattvamekaM dvidhAkR^itam loke charati kaunteya vyakti sthaM sarvakarmasu”
Both are one; and one is displayed in two different forms. Rudra and Narayana, forming one person, pervade all displayed things and cause them to act.
Clearly, it has been said the ONE SAME SOUL has divided in two forms, one in form of Narayana and the other in form of Rudra. So, Narayana and Rudra are SAME.
Also, if the Narayana (Vishnu) is born as Krishna and Lord Krishna said Lord Rudra as his soul as in the verses depicted below:
“ahamAtmA hi lokAnAM vishvAnAM pANDunandana tasmAdAtmAnamevAgre rudraM sampUjayAmyaham yadyahaM nArchayeyaM vai IshAnaM varadaM shivam AtmAnaM nArchayetkashchiditi me bhAvitaM manaH”
“I am the Soul, O son of Pandu, of all the worlds, of all the universe. Rudra, again, is my Soul. It is for this that I always adore him. If I do not adore the auspicious and boon-giving Isana nobody would then adore my own self.”
na hi viShNuH pranamati kasmai chidvibudhAya tu R^ita AtmAnameveti tato rudraM bhajAmyaham
“Vishnu never bows his head unto any deity except his own self. It is for this reason that I adore Rudra, (Rudra being, as I have already told thee, my own self).”
So, lord Siva has been equally stated by Lord Krishna as his soul (Lord Narayana’s soul)
Also, different other verses of the Mahabharata clearly said that Lord Siva is the Creator and the Master of Lord Vishnu. Below verses may be seen in this respect:
“yo ‘sṛjad dakṣiṇād aṅgād brahmāṇaṃ lokasaṃbhavam | vāmapārśvāt tathā viṣṇuṃ lokarakṣārtham īśvaraḥ | yugānte caiva saṃprāpte rudram aṅgāt sṛjat prabhuḥ |” (MBH 13:14:183)
“Thou art he that hadst created from thy right side the Grandsire Brahma, the Creator of all things. Thou art he that hadst created from thy left side Vishnu for protecting the Creation. Thou art that puissant Lord who didst create Rudra (the destroyer deity Kalagni-Rudra) when the end of the Yuga came and when the Creation was once more to be dissolved”.
.“bhIshma UvachA | asakthoham gunAn vakthum mahadevasya dhImatha | yO hi sarva gatho na cha sarvathra drusyathe | brahma vishNu surEsAnAm srushtA cha prabhureva cha | brahmAdaya pisachAntha yam hi deva upasathe | prakruthInAm parathwena purushasya cha ya para | chinthyathe yo yogavidhbhi rishibhi Thathwa darshibhi | aksharam para Brahma asacha sadasacha ya | prakruthim purusham chaiva kshobhayithwa tswathejasa | brahmana masrujath thasmad Dheva dheva prajapathi |” (MBH 13:14:3-6)
“BhIshma said.’I am quite incompetent to recite the virtues of Mahadeva of highest intelligence. He pervades all things in the universe and yet is not seen anywhere. He is the one who created Brahma, Vishnu and other devas, He is their master. All the deities, from Brahma to the Pisachas, adore and worship him. He transcends both Prakriti (Pradhana) and Purusha, he is being meditated upon by great sages who know the truth. He is indestructible and Supreme Brahman. He is both existent and non-existent. Agitating both Prakriti and Purusha by means of His energy, He created there from the universal lord of creatures, viz., BRAHMA”
How then Lord Narayana ( Lord Vishnu) being created by Lord Siva becomes His soul? How is Lord Naryana the soul of Lord Siva when Lord Siva is the Master of Lord Narayana? One can neither create nor become the master of one’s own soul
In fact, the Veda confirms the vice-versa i.e. Lord Siva is the soul of Lord Vishnu/Narayana:
'Namah girisya ca sipivishthaya ca' (Sukla Yajurveda Madhyandin verse No.29, Chapter 16)
Meaning : Salutation to Rudra, who assumes the form of Lord Vishnu ( Sipivistha).
So, If Lord Siva assumes the form of Lord Vishnu, the He is the innerself of Lord Vishnu i.e his soul.
Also I can see a vedic verse has been cited which is :
"With offerings I propitiate the branches of this swift-moving God, the bounteous Visnu. Hence Rudra gained his Rudra-strength: O Asvins, ye sought the house that hath celestial viands." (Rig Veda 7.40.5)
In reply, I will cite two verses from the same Rig Veda :
“imā rudrāya sthiradhanvane ghiraḥ kṣipreṣave devāya svadhāvne |
aṣāḷhāya sahamānāya vedhase tighmāyudhāya bharatā śṛṇotu naḥ |” (RV 7:46:1)
“To Rudra bring these songs, whose bow is firm and strong, the self-dependent God with swiftly-flying shafts,The Wise, the Conqueror whom none may overcome, armed with sharp-pointed weapons: may he hear our call”.
And
“somaḥ pavate janitā matīnāṃ janitā divo janitā pṛthivyāḥ |
janitāghnerjanitā sūryasya janitendrasya janitota viṣṇoḥ |” (Rig Veda IX.96.5)
“Father of sacred chants, Soma( Lord Siva) flows onwards, the Father of the Earth, Father of the Celestial region: Father of Agni, the creator of Surya, the Father who gave birth to Indra and Vishnu”
So, if Lord Rudra bestows Rudra-strength from Lord Vishnu, how Lord Rudra becomes self-dependent God and from where Lord Siva received the Rudra –strength to give birth to Lord Vishnu when He has to receive His Rudra-strength from Lord Vishnu?
I see a reference from the Padma Purana has been drawn where Mother Durga pleaded Lord Krishna to revoke his Sammohana weapon and wake Lord Siva up. But, why Lord Siva accepted Sammohana weapon and underwent slumber to allow Lord Krishna to win? It’s because this is according to the boon given by Lord Siva to lord Krishna. the below verses from the Drona Parva of the Mahabharata and the Harivamsa reveal this:
matprasādān manuṣyeṣu devagandharvayoniṣu
aprameyabalātmā tvaṃ nārāyaṇa bhaviṣyasi
( Mahabharata 7 : 172: verse No. 74 )
By the grace of me you will become Nārāyaṇa with unending strength among the deities, humans and Gandharvas
kaś cit tava rujaṃ kartā matprasādāt kathaṃ cana
api cet samaraṃ gatvā bhaviṣyasi mamādhikaḥ
( Mahabharata 7 : 172: verse No. 78 )
“Through my grace, none shall ever be able to cause thee pain by the weapon of thunderbolt or with any object that is wet or dry, or with any mobile or immobile thing. Thou shalt be superior to myself if thou ever goest to battle against me.'”
This was again confirmed by Lord Siva to Lord Krishna before Lord Krishna was about to appear in battle against Vanasura as stated in the Harivamsa :
yathA mainAkamAshritya tapastvamakaroH prabho |
tathA mama varaM kR^iShNa saMsmR^itya sthairyamApnuhi ||2-74-37
O lord ! O kR^iShNa! As you did penance staying on mainAka, you received a boon from me. Be firm in your mind, remembering that boon.
avadhyastvamajeyashcha mattaH shUratarastathA |
bhavitAsItyavochaM yattattathA na tadanyathA || 2-74-38
You can not be killed, you can not be conquered, you will be more valiant than me. All this will happen as told by me. None will be able to change this.
Otherwise, who else is able to dare appear before Lord Siva in the battlefield when He holds His trident?
Also, I have seen that he has cited a number of verses from the Bhagwat Gita stating Sri Krishna said this or Sri Krishna said that etc. In this context, I have to say that before discussing anything about the Bhagwat Geeta, we must consider the following verses that are also spoken by Lord Krishna to his best devotee Arjuna when the latter forgot the preaching about Geeta delivered to him by Lord Krishna just before the Kurukshetra war :
“viditaṃ me mahābāho saṅgrāme samupasthite।
māhātmyaṃ devakīmātastacca te rūpamaiśvaram॥ 5
yattadbhagavatā proktaṃ purā keśava sauhṛdāt।
tatsarvaṃ puruṣavyāghra naṣṭaṃ me bhraṣṭacetasaḥ॥ 6
mama kautūhalaṃ tvasti teṣvartheṣu punaḥ punaḥ।
bhavāṃstu dvārakāṃ gantā na cirādiva mādhava॥ 7
vaiśampāyana uvāca
evamuktastu taṃ kṛṣṇaḥ phālgunaṃ pratyabhāṣata।
pariṣvajya mahātejā vacanaṃ vadatāṃ varaḥ॥ 8
vāsudeva uvāca
śrāvitastvaṃ mayā guhye jñāpitaśca sanātanam।
dharmaṃ svarūpiṇaṃ pārtha sarvalokāṃśca śāśvatān॥ 9
abuddhyā nāgrahīryastvaṃ tanme sumahadapriyam।
na ca sādya punarbhūyaḥ smṛtirme sambhaviṣyati॥ 10
nūnamaśraddadhāno’si durmedhā hyasi pāṇḍava।
na ca śakyaṃ punarvaktumaśeṣeṇa dhanañjaya॥ 11
sa hi dharmaḥ suparyāpto brahmaṇaḥ padavedane।
na śakyaṃ tanmayā bhūyastathā vaktumaśeṣataḥ॥ 12
paraṃ hi brahma kathitaṃ yogayuktena tanmayā।
itihasam tu bakshyami tasminnarthe puratanam”॥ (MBH 14:16:5-13)
English translation is available in SECTION XVI – Book 14: Aswamedha Parva:
“'[Arjuna said]: O–mighty-armed one, thy greatness became known to me upon the approach of the battle. O son of Devaki, thy form also, as the Lord of the universe, then became known to me! What thy holy self said unto me at that time, O Kesava, through affection, has all been forgotten by me, O chief of men, in consequence of the fickleness of my mind. Repeatedly, however, have I been curious on the subject of those truths. Thou again, O Madhava, wilt repair to Dwaraka soon.’
Vaisampayana continued, ‘Thus addressed by him, Krishna of mighty energy, that foremost of speakers, embraced Phalguna and replied unto him as follows.
‘Vasudeva said, ‘I made thee listen to truths that are regarded as mysteries. I imparted to thee truths that are eternal. Verily, I discoursed to thee on Religion in its true form and on all the eternal regions. It is exceedingly disagreeable to me to learn that thou didst not, from folly, receive what I imparted. The recollection of all that I told thee on that occasion will not come to me now. Without doubt, O son of Pandu, thou art destitute of faith and thy understanding is not good. It is impossible for me, O Dhananjaya, to repeat, in detail, all that I said on that occasion. That religion (about which I discoursed to thee then) is more than sufficient for understanding Brahman. I cannot discourse on it again in detail. I discoursed to thee on Supreme Brahman, having concentrated myself in Yoga’”.
Pl. consider the following verses :
na śakyaṃ tanmayā bhūyastathā vaktumaśeṣataḥ॥ 12
paraṃ hi brahma kathitaṃ yogayuktena tanmayā।”
I cannot discourse on it again in detail. I discoursed to thee on Supreme Brahman, having concentrated myself in Yoga’”
So, Lord Krishna admits that he concentrated himself with the Supreme Brahman in Yoga and then preached the entire Geeta to Arjuna. And who is this Supreme Brahman?
The Vedas firmly declares that :
.“R^itam satyaM paraM brahman purushha.n kR^ishhNapi~Ngalam.h | uurdhvareta.n viruupaaksha.n vishvaruupaaya vai namo namaH |” (Taittiriya Aranyaka 10.23.1)
“Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Righteousness (rita) and Truth (satyam), is the androgynous purusha the Ardhanareeshwara, dark blue and reddish brown in hue, absolutely chaste (having semen raised up) and possessing uneven eyes (three eyed) . Salutations to ”.
.“yatparaM brahman sarvaatmaa vishvasyaayatanaM mahat.h |
suukShmaatsuukshmataraM nityaM tattvameva tvameva tat.h |” (Kaivalya Upanishad 16)
“That which is the Supreme Brahman, the soul of all, the great support of the universe, subtler than the subtle, and eternal – that is thyself, and thou art That”.
13.“yachChukla.n tadvaidyuta.n yadvaidyuta.n tatparaM brahman yatparaM brahma sa ekaH ya ekaH sa rudraH ya rudraH yo rudraH sa IshAnaH ya IshAnaH sa bhagavAn.h maheshvaraH |” (Atharvasiras Upanishad 3:6)
“That which is also called Shuklam (seminal fluid- the basic unit of life) is very very minute. That which is minute is like a lightning power. That which is like lightning power is the ultimate Brahman. That Brahman is one and only one. That one and only one is Rudra, it is also called Eeshana, it is also the ultimate God and it is also the lord of all things”.
He has said ‘This in turn means that only Vishnu is abode Sattva or All sattvik puranas glorify Lord Vishnu and Siva puranas are Tamasic.’
Perhaps he did not read what Lord Krishna said about Lord Siva in the Anusashana Parva :
"namo 'stu te śāśvatasarvayone; brahmādhipaṃ tvām ṛṣayo vadanti
tapaś ca sattvaṃ ca rajas; tamaś ca tvām eva satyaṃ ca vadanti santaḥ"(MBH 13:15:30)
The blessed Vishnu said, 'I saluted Mahadeva, saying,--Salutations to thee, O thou that art the eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that thou art Penance, thou art Sattwa, thou art Rajas, thou art Tamas, and thou art Truth
So, Krishna has opined along with Great Sages that Lord Siva is NOT only the abode of the Tamas quality, He is the abode of the Sattwas, the Rajas and the Tamas quality. Can one ever be of Tamas quality who is the embodiment of Truth?
"HariHara can never be separated. I live in Shiva only. And anybody who disrespects Shiva, I will punish him always."
. I have seen this story in Devon ke Dev Mahadeva... No idea about it is truth or just television invention.