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Ok first I am a Muslim and I don't get why God creates poor people and rich people, and why that kind of inequality needs to exist.

That is why I am here, I know that I am not the body "I am I". I want to know whether this "I" is affected by karma or not, who is the real doer of all karmas? Can you state that "I" didn't have reincarnation at all based on "my" previous karma because that "I" cant be affected by karma/sin at all?

Can Atma makes karma or sin?

What is the first karma that Atma made that forced him to become animal or human?

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    There was no first. Creation is eternal, endless in past and endless in future. See answers here hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/16664/… and hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/6837/… – Swami Vishwananda Nov 11 '19 at 5:03
  • Welcome to Hinduism Stack Exchange! Are you looking for a question something like Why is it said in Vedanta that you are not the doer of any action? – Pandya Nov 11 '19 at 5:42
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    The answer to your question varies depending on the school of thought. In advaita, there is only one Atman, which neither has sin nor is the doer (in reality). This one Atman appears as many (including you, me etc) and appears to catch sin, karma etc though in reality it is completely unaffected. Liberation consists in realizing that "I" am in reality the Atman, which is ever free from ignorance and its ill-effects. As another member pointed out above, there is no such thing as first karma, because creation is beginningless. – user16581 Nov 14 '19 at 17:41
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    Ok I want to know how and when did that Atman acquires body consciousness ? How did that "one" become "many" ? Atman is always self aware hence my questions – user646989 Nov 15 '19 at 3:42
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    Poor people exist to do the physical material work of the world. Only a rich person who has saturated his senses alone has time to think of God and true purpose of life. A poor man can only think of his daily basic needs. Thats why most truly realized yogis were rich kings in their early life Buddha, Mahavir, Bharat etc., People who do spiritual efforts are born in rich families in next births, so that without worrying of basic needs, they get more time to think of God and realize it as explained in Geeta as well. hinduism.stackexchange.com/a/36045/16530 – user16530 Dec 24 '19 at 6:54
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I want to know whether this "i" is affected by karma or not

Yes it is. You are the Atma, the "I", and you are affected by the Karma that you do.

who is the real Doer of all karmas ?

You, the Atma, are the doer of all karmas.

All Hindu scriptures state this. For example, the Manusmriti:

Section: The Responsible Agent: the Self

12.12 - He who is the impeller of this body, him they call the ‘Kṣetrajña,’ ‘the Conscious Being’ [the Atma/Soul]; while he who does the acts is called by the learned, the ‘Bhūtātman,’ ‘the Material Entity.’ [the physical body'].

Then, the Brahma Sutras, which are a summary of the Upanishads, the philosophical basis of Hinduism, also state the same thing.

Brahma Sutras 2.3.33 to 2.3.39 state that the Jivatma, or soul, has free will.

  1. (The soul is) an agent, on account of Scripture (thus) having a purport.
  2. On account of taking and the declaration as to its moving about.
  3. And on account of the designation (of the Self as the agent) in actions. If not so, there would be change of grammatical expression.
  4. (There would be) absence of definite rule, as in the case of consciousness.
  5. On account of the inversion of power.
  6. And on account of the absence of samâdhi.
  7. And as the carpenter, in both ways.

And the medieval Vedic scholar Ramanujacharya's commentary for Sutra 2.3.39:

The Self, although always provided with the instruments of action, such as the organ of speech, and so on, acts when it wishes to do so, and does not act when it does not wish to do so. Just as a carpenter, although having his axe and other implements ready at hand, works or does not work just as he pleases. If the internal organ, on the contrary, were essentially active, it would constantly be acting, since as a non-intelligent being it could not be influenced by particular reasons for action, such as the desire for enjoyment.

Here terminates the adhikarana of 'the agent.'

What is the first karma that Atma made that forced him to become animal or human ?

There was no first sin or action according to Hinduism; the Jivas have eternally been in the cycle of reincarnation. To break it, one must worship Brahman (God).

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  • First ,u said Atman is affected by karma ,from my knowledge Atman is god isn't it ? So how can god be affected by their own creation (karma) ? – user646989 Dec 19 '19 at 12:11
  • I think user646989 is using "I" to refer to the true self behind all things (Brahman/Paramātmāṇ) and "body" to refer to the seeming self (jīva). – Rubellite Yakṣī Dec 19 '19 at 23:12
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Welcome to Hinduism.SE! I will answer from a perspective that will hopefully be understandable to someone coming from one of the Abrahamic faiths—though I will admit, I'm more fluent in Judaism and Christianity than Islam. To speak to your last question first, I once heard it said that the illusion of the Universe exists because "God forgot to laugh." This is of course not literal, but gets at the metaphysical idea.


With regards to your first question, God doesn't make people suffer, people make ourselves the way we are. There is a saying, "God does not punish us for sinning, we punish ourselves by sinning." The original Hebrew word for sin comes from an archery term. It means, "to miss the mark." If you shoot an arrow and miss, do not admonish yourself and quit. Instead keep practicing until you get it right every time.

We should do the same in life—after the initial moment of guilt or sorrow or anger or any other negative ego response we should try again until we get it right every time. This is what it means to be righteous. The shortest distance is a straight line, but we humans like to meander (sin). This isn't terrible so long as we remember to look up and find the path again—the sooner, the better. This is correcting sin.

Airplanes are constantly flying off course because of prevailing winds and turbulence, etc, but the autopilot is constantly looking at where it is and where it needs to be so that it can correct its course. We humans need to do the same, look to a perfect model, God, which is where we need to be, but also look at where we are now. Only then can we course correct.


The reason suffering and sin prevail is because it is easy to forget who "the I" really is. The true I, the knower/observer "inside" has done nothing.

13:12 I will tell you of the wisdom that leads to immortality: the beginningless Bráhman, which can be called neither being nor non-being.

13 It dwells in all, in every hand and foot and head, in every mouth and eye and ear in the universe.

14 Without senses itself, it shines through the functioning of the senses. Completely independent, it supports all things. Beyond the guṇas (qualities), it enjoys their play.

15 It is both near and far, both within and without every creature; it moves and is unmoving. 16 In its subtlety it is beyond comprehension. It is indivisible, yet appears divided in separate creatures. Know it to be the creator, the preserver, and the destroyer.

17 Dwelling in every heart, it is beyond darkness. It is called the light of light, the object and goal of knowledge, and knowledge itself.

18 I have revealed to you the nature of the field (the body & mind; that which seems to be the real you; see "Prakriti" below) and the meaning and object of true knowledge. Those who are devoted to me, knowing these things, are united with me

Bhagavad Gītā 13:12-18, parenthesis added for topics explained outside the quote

Puruṣa and prakṛiti together are Bráhman.

Purusha is that which is unchanging and is uncaused. The animating causes, fields and principles of nature is Purusha in Hindu philosophy. Hinduism refers to Purusha as the soul of the Universe, the universal spirit present everywhere in everything and everyone all the times. Purusha is the Universal Principle that is eternal, indestructible, without form, and all-pervasive. It is Purusha in the form of nature’s laws and principles that operate in the background to regulate, guide and direct change, evolution, cause and effect. It is Purusha, in Hindu concept of existence, that breathes life into matter, is the source of all consciousness, one that creates oneness in all life forms, in all of humanity, and the essence of Self. It is Purusha, according to Hinduism, why the universe operates, is dynamic and evolves, as against being static.

Wikipedia, "Purusha", English ed.

And it is contrasted with Prakṛiti. "Material reality, or Prakrti, is everything that has changed, can change and is subject to cause and effect." (Ibid.) Prakṛiti is "the material world, nature, matter, physical and psychological character, constitution, temper, disposition." (Wikipedia, "Prakṛti", English ed.)

Prakriti is the potency that brings about evolution and change in the empirical universe. It is described in Bhagavad Gita as the "primal motive force". It is the essential constituent of the universe and is at the basis of all the activity of the creation. Prakriti is closely associated with the concept of Maya (illusion).

Ibid.

This gets to the heart of your question. The body & thoughts we believe ourselves to be (also "the field" in the above Bhagavad Gītā quote) is Prakṛiti. "The I" that you know yourself to be is Puruṣa. As described above, Prakṛiti is changeable and Puruṣa is not. Prakṛiti has causes, Puruṣa has no cause. Thus, "the I" is not affected by kárma (action). Everything we experience which is not "the I" itself, is "the I" masked by the illusion of māyā́.


This answer is quite lengthy, so I'll not answer the last question but to say that this reality is all līlā. Nothing that seems painful here, to us, is real or can harm God. It's a dance, a theatrical play in which God is all of the actors as well as the audience, it is a game through which God can know about himself and amuse himself. But, for a more complete answer, see here.

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The questions are:

  • Can Atma makes karma or sin?

  • What is the first karma that Atma made that forced him to become animal or human?

1) In a nutshell the answer would be Yes, individual self gets affected by its actions/karma. Here, Karma can be good or bad action and consequential enjoyment or suffering.

2) What is the first Karma that triggered everything else? The Answer would be only the Almighty God can tell.


Rig Veda I.164.20 says

दवा सुपर्णा सयुजा सखाया समानं वर्क्षं परि षस्वजाते | तयोरन्यः पिप्पलं सवाद्वत्त्यनश्नन्नन्यो अभि चाकशीति ||

Two Birds with fair wings, knit with bonds of friendship, in the same sheltering tree have found a refuge. One of the twain eats the sweet Fig-tree's fruitage; the other eating not regardeth only.


The first bird represents a Jiva, or individual self, or soul. She has a female nature, being a shakti, an energy of God. When the jiva becomes distracted by the fruits (signifying sensual pleasure), she momentarily forgets her lord and lover and tries to enjoy the fruit independently of him. This separating forgetfulness is maha-maya, or enthrallment, spiritual death, and constitutes the fall of the jiva into the world of material birth, death, disease and old age.

The second bird is the Atma, an aspect of God who accompanies every living being in the heart while she remains in the material world. He is the support of all beings and is beyond sensual pleasure.


So it is left to the choice of the individual self by the Almighty to decide whether to enjoy the materialistic pleasures (eating fruit) and consequent results also or to get merged in the Atma (Almighty).

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Good question (of its kind) !!

First we need to know basics of the Vedic "tatva" science. The three eternal elements, Brahman/God, Jiva/atma and Maya. All three are neither created nor destroyed. Brahman, however, can control (govern) both Jiva and Maya. The Brahman is the cause of transformation of the material energy, maya, into its gross and subtle components to fulfill the desire of jiva to enjoy like God. The jiva is also a marginal potency of God, which is trying to enjoy the material miseries as it transmigrates in different (transformed) maya bodies with accordingly higher or lower consciousness, due to lack of higher knowledge of Brahman. Infact, due to lack of eternal knowledge and love for God, jiva/atma is punishing itself in this material domain right from the very beginning of material existence which is based on karma or freedom of action of choice.

Nevertheless, atma never loses its original eternal identity. The true eternal identity of every jiva/atma is as an eternal servant of God. The eternal identity which has been illusioned by maya or has been missed by jiva itself due to detachment ("dvesha") from Brahman/God and attachment ("ichchha") for material desires.

The first sin, of course which jiva made was "ichchha" to enjoy like God (perhaps, jiva misinterpred Veda-mantras like, "aham brahmasmi", "soo...aham", "tat tvam asi") and "dvesha", which led to disobeyance of God's eternal rule. The second sin we are now making is not attempting to know about Him and our relationship with Him after getting this human birth. We are wasting our precious (human consciousness) time in discussing about jiva and maya. We always stand a chance, however, to turn back and go back to Him, in this human life granted by God. (For details study the Bh.Gita and also sloka# 7.27 there in. Please refer to discourses like that of Haridas Thakur Maharaj fame for these type of "kutarka-vikalpa", foreign sophistry based questions).

http://www.spiritual-revolutionary.com/Lecture_transcriptions/Bg7.27_Heidelberg_28Mar06.htm

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  • Thanks ,is this advaita ? – user646989 Dec 19 '19 at 12:08
  • We can call it "achintya-bhed-abhed". God is infinite Brahman and Jiva is atomic Brahman (part and parcel of marginal potency of God). Jiva has minute similarity with God and eternally huge difference with God/Brahman. – user30612 Dec 19 '19 at 14:31
  • @user30612 where is abheda if there is abheda then he is also equal in some aspect.. which aspect you are saying jiva is abheda to God?? – Prasanna R Dec 20 '19 at 7:04
  • @PrasannaR Bheda: Difference between Jiva and Brahman is huge, jiva is "annu chetan" or atomic consciousness but Brahman is "vibhu-chetan" or infinite consciousness. Brahman is ocean of consciousness, jiva is a wave form consciousness. Brahman is controller, Jiva is controlled. – user30612 Dec 20 '19 at 17:22
  • @Paṇḍyā hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/34781/… – user30612 Dec 20 '19 at 19:13

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