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Ambaṣṭha, Niṣāda, Pārośora, Ugra, Sūta, Māgadha, Vaideha, Āyogava, Kṣattṛ, Caṇḍāla, Āvṛta, Ābhīra, Dhigvaṇa, Pukkasa, Kukkaṭaka, Śvapāka, Veṇa

Manusmriti (10.5) onwards gives names of mixed varna children and says they are out of varna system. As I know, out of Varna system is opressed people, unpure, etc.

Can the above castes/categories/groups enter the Varna system or they are destined to be untochables and deplorables their whole lives?

I have looked a lot, cant find it.

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    According to Bhagavad-gita the system of varna-asrama is based on gunas-karma. So by that logic if the lower borns acquire through training and purushartha the guna and karma, they can very well enter Varna system. Just like Gautama (of unknown birth) became a Brahmana and Karna was made King. Albeit its rare and difficult due to past life influences. – Prakash K Jan 28 at 16:23
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    @PrakashK Karna was actually born to a kshatriya. – Ikshvaku Jan 28 at 19:27
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    Does this answer your question? Examples of Varna migration in Hindu mythology? – sv. Jan 28 at 20:42
  • @PrakashK the gunas are determined by birth usually and karmas are based on gunas or tendencies.Varna cannot keep changing umpteen times based on karmas done in a day.how many in Kali age of low-horns can do intense tapas like Rishi Gautama...? – 9bilvapatra Jan 29 at 18:55
  • @9bilvapatra How many can do is a different thing as statistical thing. What is allowed in shastra is what i am stating. Birth plays an important role since the soul is continuing from past life, but doesn't mean he can't try in this birth if he wants to. Its difficult but allowed. – Prakash K Jan 30 at 7:47
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Can the lower borns enter varna system?

The castes that you listed are offspring of anuloma and pratiloma unions. They are still part of the varna system but they are not part of the four main castes: brahmana, kshatriya, vaishya, and shudra. These castes are pure castes, whereas the castes you listed are mixed castes.

Manu 10.4 - The Brāhmaṇa, the Kṣatriya and the Vaiśya are the three twice-born castes; the fourth is the one caste, Śūdra; there is no fifth.

The only "caste" that would be outside of the varna system are mlecchas. Mleccha is a designation for non-Vedic people; i.e. people not part of the Vedic civilization and are of unknown caste origin.

As I know, out of Varna system is opressed people, unpure, etc.

"Oppressed" is a highly subjective term, but the low castes cannot take up the occupations of higher castes because they have inferior gunas. Same-caste marriages produce children with the same gunas as their parents, whereas inter-caste marriages produce children with very inferior gunas. Because low-caste people have very inferior gunas (lots of tamasic guna and evil predisposition), they are incapable of performing the duties of higher castes.

For example, some verses to illustrate this concept:

Manu 10.9 - From the Kṣatriya on a Śūdra maiden is born a being called ‘Ugra,’ of the stuff of the Kṣatriya and Śūdra, cruel in his deeds and dealings.

Manu 10.21 - From the ‘Apostate’ Brāhmaṇa is born the evil-natured ‘Bhṛjjakaṇṭaka,’ the Āvantya, the ‘Vāṭadhāna’ the ‘Puṣpadha,’ and the ‘Śaikha.’

Inter-caste marriage between a man and woman of pure-caste (the four castes) produces slightly inferior children. But as inter-caste marriage keeps continuing between pratiloma and anuloma people after several generations, the offspring become extremely inferior in quality (tamasic and evil), and eventually become mlecchas.

Some verses for reference:

10.29 - Those also beget on each other’s wives several ‘alien’ sons, greatly tainted and despised.

10.30 - As the Śūdra begets an ‘alien’ being on a Brāhmaṇa woman,—even so an alien propagates on females of the four castes, a still more alien being.

10.31 - Aliens behaving discordantly, beget fifteen castes, still more alien, disgraced and not disgraced.

Because Pratiloma off-spring have very inferior qualities, they are enjoined to take up occupations that are appropriate for their qualities. For example:

10.38 - By the ‘Caṇḍāla,’ on the ‘Pukkasa’ woman is begotten the ‘Sopāka,’ whose livelihood consists of death, and who are wicked and despised by good people.

Chandalas are an untouchable caste that tortures and executes criminals.

Can the above castes/categories/groups enter the Varna system or they are destined to be untochables and deplorables their whole lives?

The only castes that are "untouchable" are Chandalas and other castes whose occupations consist of death:

10.39 - The ‘Niṣāda’ woman bears to the ‘Caṇḍāla’ the son called ‘Antyāvasāyin,’ working in the cremation-ground, despised even by out-casts.

As you can see, the caste system is very fair, scientific, and logical.

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    how is it scientific to say son of a brahman female and a sudra male, a chandala, is inferior and is to be untouchable? – hindu Jan 28 at 15:09
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    @hindu Because that is how the transfer of guna works in sexual intercourse. When the father is of a lower caste than the mother, the children will have very inferior gunas because such marriages are adharma, so their children will also be predisposed to following adharma. A brahmana woman marrying a shudra man is very, very sinful, so their child will also be very evil. The child will have a body that is very tamasic and full of wicked predisposition. – Ikshvaku Jan 28 at 15:12
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    doesnt look scientific to me tbh. this is just saying you are good because your father was good, bad because he intermarried. – hindu Jan 28 at 15:18
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    @hindu It is transfer of genetics. The child acquires the predisposition of the mother and father during sexual intercourse. There are also other things that affect the nature of the child, such as intent of having sex, type of marriage, times which one has sex, etc. You are after all a product of your parents union. – Ikshvaku Jan 28 at 15:22
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    @hindu-why are you expecting Sanatana to be answerable to the ever changing discipline of science..which creeds are scientific?religion is fundamentally a matter of faith of countless generations of a certain land and its peoples.also why this obsession with ‘touching’ people of other varnas?nothing wrong for people to choose to not be touched or to not share roti-beti as it is each family’s wish. How can people be forced to dine, marry or touch others against their will or consent? – 9bilvapatra Jan 29 at 19:07
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All these mixed varnas you mentioned originated later in the Vedic society. The original Varna system consisted of only 4 Varnas(kind of 4 races of men) with distinct genes and their attributes where marriages was to be done in the same varna. This was also explained in Geeta which is summary of shrutis Vedas and Vedanta.

Geeta Chapter 18

Bhagavad Gita 18.41 The duties of the Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, and Shudras—are distributed according to their qualities, in accordance with their guṇas.

Bhagavad Gita 18.42 Tranquility, restraint, austerity, purity, patience, integrity, knowledge, wisdom, and belief in a hereafter—these are the intrinsic qualities of work for Brahmins.

Bhagavad Gita 18.43 Valor, strength, fortitude, skill in weaponry, resolve never to retreat from battle, large-heartedness in charity, and leadership abilities, these are the natural qualities of work for Kshatriyas.

Bhagavad Gita 18.44 Agriculture, dairy farming, and commerce are the natural works for those with the qualities of Vaishyas. Serving through work is the natural duty for those with the qualities of Shudras.

Bhagavad Gita 18.45 By fulfilling their duties, born of their innate qualities, human beings can attain perfection. Now hear from me how one can become perfect by discharging one’s prescribed duties.

Bhagavad Gita 18.46 By performing one’s natural occupation, one worships the Creator from whom all living entities have come into being, and by whom the whole universe is pervaded. By such performance of work, a person easily attains perfection.

' Braahmanosya mukhmaasita, baahu raajanya krita. Uru tadasya yadvaishyaha padabhyaam shudro ajaayata. '

" From his(God) mouth emerged Brahmins(priests), from shoulders emerged Kshatriyas(warriors or governors), from thighs emerged Vaishyas(traders, businessmen, agriculturist) and from his feet emerged Shudras(serving class) " (Purushsukta -Rig Veda)

These varnas are parts of Brahman translates to Nirguna Purusha and Triguna Prakriti eventually, are also 4 Puruṣārtha or underlying backbone of society and its people.

Brahmin = Nirguna Purusha(head/Wisdom & Moksha)

Kshatriya = Satva Guna (hands/Protection & Dharma)

Vaishya = Rajas Guna (stomach/Reproduction & Artha)

Shudra = Tamas Guna (feet/Physical work & Kama)

Krishna, who was Saguna Brahman explained that how the knowledge of Geeta/Vedas were given to the ruling kings Manu in the beginning of current Manvantra and transferred to their progenies later.

Bhagavad Gita 4.1 The Supreme Lord Shree Krishna said: I taught this eternal science of Yog to the Sun-god, Vivasvan, who passed it on to Manu; and Manu in turn instructed it to Ikshvaku.

But as Yugas descended from Satyuga to Kaliyua, people forgot Dharma and started practicing inter-varna marriages out of lust, adultery, or greed of gold leading to confused varnaless, caste-system of present society, for example Mlecchas and all other barbaric races. Hence, names of these mixed varnas were coined and occupations assigned later by Manus and their progenies and Brahmin scholars of their time as Vedas is silent about occupations of mixed varnas owing to their mixed genes and random affinity towards occupation of scholar, warrior, businessman or servant and were given lowly works in ancient Vedic society. Thats why several of these offspings of mixed-varna preferred to leave ancient Vedic society and migrated all around Eurasia, despite Indian subcontinent's rich favorable climate yet strict society to become varnaless and non-vedic Mlecchas of today. This is also known as Indo-Aryan migration which was twisted by European scholars and Hitler where they claim that Aryans originated in some parts of Europe when they themselves call Aryans pagan and follow Jewish Abrahamic religions and their customs today. Thats why Sanskrit share so much similarities with PIE languages and the chief Vedic Gods Indra and the sky father god Dyaus of Rigveda became to be known as Thor and Zeus/Jupiter respectively in European cultures.

Manu Smriti 10.4 The Brāhmaṇa, the Kṣatriya and the Vaiśya are the three twice-born castes; the fourth is the one caste, Śūdra; there is no fifth.

Manu Smriti 10.24 ‘Confused castes’ are produced by infidelity among the castes, by the marrying of women unfit for marriage, and by the neglect of one’s duties

Eugenics, which is spiritual science, is a part of Vedic society based on laws of nature and failing to abide by it alone leads to evil souls taking birth in aristocrat clans. Birth, Death and marriage of any human jiva is controlled by nature and its law as these things impact the entire society for thousands of years on earth in the form of their progenies and their contribution to society. Humans are not animals who are allowed to mate randomly, even animals are controlled by nature in the form of mating season. Man is given intellect and Shastras to abide by them, failing to follow, leads to catastrophes in offsprings. Thats why a common man, of today's Kaliyuga, an image of God in reality is so atheist, weak, greedy and materialistic compared to divine wise kings Manus and their offsprings, the mind born of Brahma, the personification of Brahman via Vivasvan and Saptrishis. Thats why monarchy was removed and democracy came into our current society where any common man can become minister by his Karmas. Thats why evil Ravana took birth from Brahmin father through deception in Treta Yuga when Dharma prevailed but Kamsa or asura Kalnemi took birth in Yaduvansha automatically because of collapse of following Dharma shastras by their forefathers during Dwapra Yuga and Krishna avatar had to take birth to annihilate them later.

Bhagavad Gita 1.38 – 1.39 Their thoughts are overpowered by greed and they see no wrong in annihilating their relatives or wreaking treachery upon friends. Yet, O Janardan (Krishna), why should we, who can clearly see the crime in killing our kindred, not turn away from this sin?

Bhagavad Gita 1.40 When a dynasty is destroyed, its traditions get vanquished, and the rest of the family becomes involved in irreligion.

Bhagavad Gita 1.41 With the preponderance of vice, O Krishna, the women of the family become immoral; and from the immorality of women, O descendent of Vrishni, unwanted progeny are born.

Bhagavad Gita 1.42 An increase in unwanted children results in hellish life both for the family and for those who destroy the family. Deprived of the sacrificial offerings, the ancestors of such corrupt families also fall.

Bhagavad Gita 1.43 Through the evil deeds of those who destroy the family tradition and thus give rise to unwanted progeny, a variety of social and family welfare activities are ruined.

Mahabharata 13: Anusasana Parva SECTION XLVIII

Thus to these mixed castes spring up from improper and sinful union of fathers and mothers belonging to different castes. Whether they live in concealment or openly, they should be known by their occupations. The duties have been laid down in the scriptures for only the four principal orders. As regards the others the scriptures are entirely silent. Among all the orders, the members of those castes that have no duties assigned to them by the scriptures, need have no fears as to what they do (to earn their livelihood). Persons unaccustomed to the performance or for whom sacrifices have not been laid down, and who are deprived of the company and the instructions of the righteous whether numbered among the four principal orders or out of their pale, by uniting themselves with women of other castes, led not by considerations of righteousness but by uncontrolled lust, cause numerous mixed castes to come into existence whose occupations and abodes depend on the circumstances connected with the irregular unions to which they owe their origin.

But knower of Brahman alone is a true Brahmin, not by birth alone as highlighted by modern yogis, Swamis, Paramhansas and social reformers of Hinduism of 20th century like explained in stories of Satyakama Jabala and Vishvamitra. The mixed varnas are not untouchables but random genes and gunas, even Adi Shankaracharya, founder of 4 Mathas of Hinduism and propagator of Uttara Mimamsa Vedanta had to learn final lesson of Brahm gyan from a Chandala and touched his feet in Kashi before realizing Brahman perfectly.

Some of the rules of eugenics, which is spiritual science, not scientific cloning or GMOs are mentioned in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad and Garuda Purana

7-10. After menstruation the women should be avoided for four days. Their face should not be seen during that time, lest sin should arise in the body.

Having bathed, and washed her clothes, a woman becomes pure on the fourth day. From the seventh day she becomes fit to perform the rites of worship to the forefathers and the Shining Ones. During the seven days the embryo continues impure. Here the sons gradually enter during the eighth day. Sons are born on even nights, daughters on odd. Keeping away from, her during the first seven days, on even nights he enters.

11-12. Sixteen nights are declared to be common for women. 1 On the fourteenth night the seed remains there certainly. Then is produced the righteous son, a store of auspicious qualities. That night is never obtained by vulgar people.

  1. On the firth. day women should eat sweet foods. Pungent, acid, astringent and hot things should be entirely avoided.

14-18. The husband, like a husbandman, having sown the seed of great potentiality in the field which is productive of grain, reaps a good harvest.

The man, having chewed betel, 1 put on flowers and sandal-paste, and clean clothes, and with righteous thoughts in his mind, should unite with his good wife. According to the thoughts in his mind at the time of union will be the nature of the one who enters the womb. The intelligence joined with the seed remains always in the sperm, When desire, thought and sperm become united, Then the man obtains semen, and in the interior of the womb the formation of ovum takes place, by the union of sperm and germ

  1. The good son who enters the womb is the giver of the highest bliss. For him there are numerous rites, such as the Punsavana.

The above eugenics is also explained in a story of Markendaya Purana of Varuthini, sage Pravara and Kali and in Mahabharata during birth of Pandu and Drihtrashtra.

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its a good question. yes, lower born can enter into varna Ashrama. for frankly speaking in this kali yuga every own is lower born "janmana jayate sudra" by birth everyone is sudra, but by approaching a bonafide Spiritual master he will enter into Varna-Ashrama.

Varna means it is completely related to his duties according to his guna and karma ( actions) guru decides whether he is Brahmana ( intelligent class of people like scholars or scientist etc), Kshatriya ( administrators or rulers), Vyasya ( business class) Or sudra ( who can not do above three they can support to above categories ) which is used for livelihood & other things.

Ashrama means it is completely related to his way of living it is meant for the ultimate purpose of life back to godhead. Practicing a way of life to go where to come from. in this, a person should go through 4 kinds stages Brahmacharya- Student life where he is under guru and study about Vedas, etc.. Grihastha- leading a married life by earning Purusharthas Dharma, practicing religious principles he will earn money Artha with that he can full fill his desires in a rightful way after that he attains `moksha, Liberation.

Now, where is the question of lower borns? every person should go through this process but unfortunately, now we don't have gurukuls to teach these things. even though many spiritual centers are existing they were not bonafide and authorized. try to approach a Bonafide sampradaya to get more Absolute knowledge about God and his creation.

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Everyone is a born shudra !!

Skanda Purana Vol.18 Book VI , Nagar Kanda , Chapter 239 :

जन्मना जायते शूद्रः संस्कारात् द्विज उच्यते।

Everyone is a shudra at his birth. He is called Dwija (Twice Born) due to the consecration and ability to curse.

The "varna-ashram" religion was to manage the state's socio-economics on the basis of delegation of duties. There are four castes, "varna" and four stages, "asharam" therein. The Bh.Gita in Ch #18 explains the material duties and responsibilities of each of the four "varna".

The spiritual platform, however, is of more importance than any of the material religions. The spiritual platform is equally open to each and all souls. That's why Krishna concludes that all the material religions can be neglected and abandoned when we surrender onto God within our consciousness.

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  • > Everyone is a shudra at his birth I already gave the verses above, manusmriti 10.5 onwards there are 15 types of births that are not of any varna – hindu Jan 29 at 9:03
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Yes. They can enter the varna system, but after several generations. Through the doctrine of Jatyutkarsa (rise in status of caste) and Jatyapakarsa (fall in status of caste)

These are best explained by Haradatta in Gautamasmriti (Chap 4). Manusmriti only has limited reference to it.

  1. In the seventh (generation men obtain) a change of caste, either being raised to a higher one or being degraded to a lower one.[19]

  2. The venerable teacher declares (that this happens) in the fifth (generation).[20]>

  3. And (the same rule applies) to those born (from parents of different classes that are) intermediate between (two of the castes originally) created (by Brahman).[21]

  4. But those born in the inverse order (from fathers of a lower and mothers of a higher caste stand) outside (the pale of) the sacred law,[22]

  5. As well as (those born in the regular order) from a female of the Śūdra caste.[23]

  6. But he whom a Śūdra (begets) on a female of unequal caste shall be treated like an outcast.

So Haradatta described the above as follow - Anulomas (offsprings of men higher than women in varna) when they marry in such a way that bridegroom in each stage is higher or lower than the bride then they rise higher or fall lower in the 7th and 5th generation respectively.

So if Ambastha girl (born from brahmana father and Vaisya mother) marries a brahmana bou, and their daughter does the same, and the same goes on for 7 generations then the 8th generation child is a brahmana. (Jatyutkarsa)

Otoh, if Ambastha boy marries a vaisya girl, and their son does the same and same goes on for 5 generations then the 6th generation child is a vaisya (Jatyapakarsa)

Nothing for offsprings of Pratiloma (women higher than men) marriages.

One exception found is in Baudhya Dharmasutras. Inserted below is screenshot from "History of Dharmasastras - PV Kane". Says that mixed caste offsprings when they intermarry among themselves can get into the varna fold. But again it seems only for mixed caste anuloma offsprings.

enter image description here

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Yes, the Vedas command that this should happen. It is the duty of every Hindu to do this. Rig Veda 9.63 says:

इन्द्रं वर्धन्तो अप्तुर: कृण्वन्तो विश्वमार्यम् । अपघ्नन्तो अराव्णः ॥

This is a prayer to make all humans Aryas. So when Krishna Yajurveda is making a distinction between Shudra & Arya it means bad people and noble people. Of course, birth is as per karma but this is a very clear message from the Veda itself that Varna can be changed! Now if we see Upanishads or Brahmanas we almost always get the same picture. Look at Chandogya Upanishad talks about the initiation story of another Upanishad's author:

Gautama asked him, ‘O Somya, what is your lineage?’ Satyakāma said: ‘Sir, I do not know what my lineage is. When I asked my mother, she said to me: “I was very busy serving many people when I was young, and I had you. As this was the situation, I know nothing about your lineage. My name is Jabālā, and your name is Satyakāma.” So, sir, I am Satyakāma Jābāla’. Gautama said to him: ‘No non-brāhmin could speak like this.

So the son of a highly impure shudra woman and unknown man was declared Brahmin. Now look at the story of Vedic author Vatsa found in Tandya Brahmana 14.6.6, Jaiminiya Brahmana 3.234:

The two sons of Kanva, Medhatithi and Trioka, contended about the sacred lore (brahman). They said : ' Come, let us cross the flaming fire'. They crossed the flaming fire. Tris'oka crossed over it (unharmed), but of the other it scorched the eye-lashes. Ho (Trisoka) said to him (to Medhatithi) : ' I have vanquished thee '. ' No ', said he, 'thou art the son of an Asura-mother ; even the deities have not wished to touch thee'. Then, they (said): 'Come, let us cross the water'. They crossed the flowing Rathaspa. Tris'oka crossed over it (unharmed), but of the other the rims of his cart were moistened by the water of the Rathaspa (translation uncertain, text corrupted !). He (TriSoka) said to him (to Medhatithi): 'I have vanquished thee'.

let us walk according to the rite through fire (to decide) which of us two is the better brahmin

Agni preferred Asura's son. Shudra's son was a superior Brahmin compared to birth-Brahmin. Another example from the Brahmanas is in Kausitaki Brāhmana 12.3 and Aitareya Brāhmana 8.19

"You are the son of a female slave. We will not eat with you" (dāsya vai tvam putro si na vayam tvaya saha bhaksayisyama iti). Kavasa became angry and ran away. He recited a hymn of praise to Sarasvati, who then followed after him: sarasvatim etena suktena tustava tam heyam iyaya. Realizing what had happened, the surprised seers hurried to him to express their reverence: "0 seer, homage be to you. Do not harm us. You indeed are the best of us...

Saraswati considers a Shudra's son superior to all birth-Brahmins combined at being a Brahmin. The birth-Brahmins also accept they are inferior to him. He authored a part of Rig Veda. There are 108 canonical Upanishads as per Muktika Upanishad. One of them is Vajrasuchika Upanishad which says

It is said that a Brahmana is so because of his caste. This is not acceptable because there are diverse communities in the world... ...Among these many have attained the highest rank, despite of their lower birth and given proof of their wisdom. Therefore a Brahmana is not so because of his community.

Self-explanatory. I have given examples from 7 Vedic texts against caste.

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You are mixing up the thousands of castes which are part of the caste system with the 4-varna varna system. They are not the same. According to Rig Veda humans of different mental types come from Purusha.

The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced.

Rig Veda 10.90.12

No one can be outside the Varna system since that would have the serious implication that there is something outside Purusha. Nothing can be outside Purusha. Hence the answer is that the so called lower castes have never been outside the Varna system. The Gunas which form the basis of the Varna system are present in every human being.

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  • there are several verses in manu smriti which states a person loses his varna for doing something. just from a 2 second google search gives me verses from 11.59 to 11.68 – hindu Jan 28 at 15:16
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    what privilages? can i get some links or such. i was reading about this stuff, landed on how inter varna marriage is not good, then how chandalas are untouchable. – hindu Jan 28 at 15:47
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    @PradipGangopadhyay vedas say word of many is final hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/31997/… – hindu Jan 28 at 15:56
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    @PradipGangopadhyay we should stop rejecting manusmriti. A similar stuff has been said in rest of the smritis. there are around 6 commentries available on it, all chcek out – hindu Jan 29 at 9:05
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    Can you vote to 'undelete' my answer here? Thanks. Some users have decided to delete it. – sv. Feb 17 at 18:08

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