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Shaivites say because Sri rudram Describes shri rudra as having vishvarupa and being vishvishvar he is brahman,but nowhere does the text actually call Shiva as brahman,vishnu is omnipresent yet they wouldn 't say he is brahman either.maybe Shiva has vishvarupa due to saguna's Grace?

where do the Vedas actually say that it is Shiva who is brahman?or anything of the sort?

some slokas do say rudra is something akin to brahman,but rudra is not necasserily shiva,except in shri rudram(because it describes this particular rudra as having the physical traits of Shiva alone).

maybe ucchista Ganapati(who is also blue and three eyed) is the rudra of these texts.or Surya(wich is described as brahman adityaava brahma and is three eyed).or kumara?we only know that the rudra of shri rudram is shiva for sure.

what is it that clearly makes the Rudra that is shiva(and we know 100% that he is shiva not some other rudra or being wich can be called rudra)as brahman?even Sarvishvara can mean only being lord over creation and that could technically be possible if Shiva is second after saguna brahman. the Vedas say agni is all the devatas,but how do we know this agni is rudra shiva and not another rudra(I know the vedas say agni is rudra,but how do we know its shiva rudra and not surya or ganesh)?

You could say its in the Upanishads,but how do we know that other upanishads besides suryopanishad or ganesh athavasirsha are accepted by these sects per se?

I am a Shaivite BTW but my faith is shaky

any help would be highly Appreciatted from Shaivite users(Not because I dont appreciatte other's imput but I am trying to restore faith in my own ishta and I already know the other's viewpoints)

  • thanks for your input.but I don't like blind faith.I need pramanas to believe something. – johny man Apr 4 at 15:16
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    Does this answer your question? Which Vedic verses depict Lord Shiva/Rudra as the Brahman? – sv. Apr 5 at 5:30
  • Shiva means pure or auspicious. Shiva is auspicious because it depicts the true nature of the soul or BRAHMAN that is untouched by Trigunas, transcendental and beyond the ever-changing cosmos. SHIVA like Rudra was mentioned in Rig Veda as an epithet of BRAHMAN. – srimannarayana k v Apr 5 at 8:42
  • Hence, Shiva can be used alongwith Rudra or Vishnu or Indra or other epithets of BRAHMAN – srimannarayana k v Apr 5 at 8:51
  • @Johny So your ishta can be your ishta only if it is proven in some book that he is brahman? Funny! Btw I can understand your problem here. these all confusions started since pauranik era. Earlier people used to worship Surya, Agni, Indra without thinking whether one is Brahman or not. For them bhakti only mattered. :-) – TheLittleNaruto Apr 5 at 18:05
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Answer is based on Vedas and Upanishads.

In the Shruti texts, idea of monotheistic God is present. One Superme God (Brahman) take different forms.

  • Ekakshara Upanishad

मित्रः सुपर्णश्चन्द्र इन्द्रो रुद्र- स्त्वष्टा विष्णुः सविता गोपतिस्त्वम् । त्वं विष्णुर्भूतानि तु त्रासि दैत्यां- स्त्वयावृतं जगदुद्भवगर्भः॥१२॥

  1. (Thou art) Mitra, the bright-feathered (Garuda), the moon, Indra, Varuna, Rudra, Tvastar, Vishnu, Savitar, the lord of light, Thou Vishnu protectest all beings from the demoniac; the world is encompassed by Thee (Brahman); Thou the womb of all that is born; Thou art the earth, the atmosphere, the firmament; Thou art the self-born; Thou art turned towards all.
  • Kaivalya Upanishad

स ब्रह्मा स शिवः सेन्द्रः सोऽक्षरः परमः स्वराट् । स एव विष्णुः स प्राणः स कालोऽग्निः स चन्द्रमाः॥८॥

  1. He is Brahma, he is Siva, he is Indra. He is the imperishable, supreme self illumined Lord. He alone is Vishnu. He is the life giving breath. He is time, he is fire, and also the moon.

In some Upanishad, Trinity is considered as the parts of Superme god. I could quote no. of mantras from Upanishad about this. So Shiva is considered as a form of Brahma, he is also known as Brahman.

  • Atharvashira Upanishad

ॐ देवा ह वै स्वर्गं लोकमायंस्ते रुद्रमपृच्छन्को भवानिति । सोऽब्रवीदहमेकः प्रथममासं वर्तामि च भविश्यामि च नान्यः कश्चिन्मत्तो व्यतिरिक्त इति । सोऽन्तरादन्तरं प्राविशत् दिशश्चान्तरं प्राविशत् सोऽहं नित्यानित्योऽहं व्यक्ताव्यक्तो ब्रह्माब्रह्माहं प्राञ्चः प्रत्यञ्चोऽहं दक्षिणाञ्च उदञ्चोहं अधश्चोर्ध्वं चाहं दिशश्च प्रतिदिशश्चाहं पुमानपुमान् स्त्रियश्चाहं गायत्र्यहं सावित्र्यहं त्रिष्टुब्जगत्यनुष्टुप् चाहं छन्दोऽहं गार्हपत्यो दक्षिणाग्निराहवनीयोऽहं सत्योऽहं गौरहं गौर्यहमृगहं यजुरहं सामाहमथर्वाङ्गिरसोऽहं ज्येष्ठोऽहं श्रेष्ठोऽहं वरिष्ठोऽहमापोऽहं तेजोऽहं गुह्योहंअरण्योऽहमक्षरमहं क्षरमहं पुष्करमहं पवित्रमहमुग्रं च मध्यं च बहिश्च पुरस्ताज्ज्योतिरित्यहमेव सर्वेभ्यो मामेव स सर्वः समां यो मां वेद स सर्वान्देवान्वेद सर्वांश्च वेदान्साङ्गानपि ब्रह्म ब्राह्मणैश्च गां गोभिर्ब्राह्माणान्ब्राह्मणेन हविर्हविषा आयुरायुषा सत्येन सत्यं धर्मेण धर्मं तर्पयामि स्वेन तेजसा । ततो ह वै ते देवा रुद्रमपृच्छन् ते देवा रुद्रमपश्यन् । ते देवा रुद्रमध्यायन् ततो देवा ऊर्ध्वबाहवो रुद्रं स्तुवन्ति॥१॥

  1. Om. Once upon a time the Devas resorted to the world of Bliss (Kailasa); and the Devas addressed Rudra thus, “who are you?”. He replied: “I alone was in the beginning; I am now; and will be in the future. There is none but me.” He spread out himself and pervaded all the quarters. (He said): “I am eternal and non-eternal, I am Brahma, I am eastern and western quarters, south and north, up and down, the quarters and cross quarters, I am man and otherwise, woman, I am Gayatri, Savitri, Sarasvati, Trishtup, Jagati, and Anushtup, I am the metre, I am Garhapatya, Dakshina and Ahavaniya fires, I am truth, I am the Cow (the Cow of plenty) Gauri, the first born, superior and best, I am Water and Light, I am the Rik, Yajus, Saman, and Atharvangirasa, I am perishable and imperishable, I am to be protected and kept in secrecy, I am the forest, I am the lotus (universe), I am pure, top, center, out-side and front, and I am the light which is in ten quarters and otherwise.” I alone exist. All are equal to me. He who knows me knows all the Devas. I nourish the earth through the light of the Sun, (according to a commentator, I perpetuate creation through man and woman), preserve the Brahmins by Brahmanic glory, the oblations by ghee &c, the life by life-giving energy, the truth by truth, and Dharma by Dharma. Next, the Devas did not see Rudra in his own glory. They thought to meditate upon Rudra, and began to praise Him with uplifted hands.
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