As per a comment in this question,

A Vedic Brāhmiṇa is worse than a chāṇḍāla/achût, who knows "real Śhruti".

Here's a screenshot of the comment, just in case:

enter image description here

So, which scriptures say that a Vedic Brāhmiṇa is worse than a chāṇḍāla/Achût, who knows the real Śhruti ?

Is there any scriptural truth to this comment?

And, is there something called as Real Śhruti and Fake Śhruti?

  • You blanked out the name in the screenshot, but linked to the question which shows their name...
    – Ikshvaku
    May 19, 2021 at 11:02
  • The srutis are the vedas. your question as to a 'real' or 'fake' sruti is unclear. May 20, 2021 at 4:12
  • 2
    The question is perfectly clear and fine @Swami Vishwananda. The OP of the linked comment makes a proposition of tantras being real shruti and not Vedas, I haven't. I'm just asking the veracity of their claims. Therefore, I'd request you to please try to to expand your "niche definition" of what or what not constitutes questions on hinduism and PLEASE try not to close vote and downvote every other question, which one might disagree with.
    – Vivikta
    May 20, 2021 at 4:27

2 Answers 2


Yes that is true. For example, I will use one text of Kaul sampradaay to prove this - The Mahanirvaan Tantra shastra (Chapter 4)

A Chandala versed in the knowledge of Kaulika doctrine excels a Brahmana, and a Brahmana who is wanting in such knowledge is beneath even a Chandala.

He who during the dominance of the Kali Age, knowing My ordinances, yet performs his religious observances in other ways, is a great sinner ... He merely wears the sacred thread, and is lower than a Chandala

Vedas are powerless is also given in same scripture

The Vedas have LOST THEIR POWER (Chapter 1)

Men, whether they be of the twice born or other castes ... will not obtain purity or the success of their desired ends by the Vedic ritual, or that prescribed by the Sanghitas and Smritis (Chapter 2)

The Vedic rites and Mantras which were efficacious in the First Age have ceased to be so in this. They are now as POWERLESS as snakes, the poison-fangs of which are drawn and are like to that which is dead

The whole heap of other Mantras have NO MORE POWER than the organs of sense of some pictured image on a wall. To worship with the aid of other Mantras is as FRUITLESS as it is to cohabit with a barren woman. The labour is lost (Chapter 2)

It is also implied that the Vedas are useless scriptures just like Puraans.

O Auspicious One! of what avail are the Vedas, the Puranas, or the Shastras, since he who has the knowledge of this great Tantra is Lord of all Siddhi (Chapter 2)

For such what need is there of Vedic practices (Chapter 3)

the householder should in all his acts be guided by the rules of the Agamas. He will never attain success by other ways. And, O Devi! at the stage of the mendicant the carrying of the staff is NOT PERMITTED SINCE ... both that and other practices are Vedic (Chapter 8)

He who, whilst in the circle, makes, from pride, distinctions of caste, descends to a terrible hell, even though he should have gone to the very END OF THE VEDANT (Chapter 8)

In the final chapter, the shastr concludes that

There is NO USE OF THE VEDAS, the Puranas, the Smritis,. the Sanghitas (Chapter 14)

  • 2
    It makes a distinction between the knowledgeable and merely ritualistic. It doesn't blanket statement that one is superior than the other. The aim of the verse is to eulogize the importance of knowledge - jñan, which if obtained by anyone of whatsoever varňa or creed, is obviously on a higher pedestal than a mere ritual oriented person.
    – Vivikta
    May 19, 2021 at 11:12
  • 1
    Vedas are not useless. The verse again means that just like most stotras and knowledge of various weapons and others vidyas are inaccessible in Kaliyuga, similarly the times are such that Vedas and their powers are mostly untapped by almost all.
    – Vivikta
    May 19, 2021 at 11:14
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    You seem to be charged by sectarian ideologies. Let's stop any further discussion because it's useless. Discarding Brahmâ as a mere demigod tantamount to big disrespect to the tenets of Trinity. ("ब्रह्मा, विष्णु, सदा शिव, जानत अविवेका, प्रणवाक्षर के मध्ये ये तीनों एका")
    – Vivikta
    May 19, 2021 at 11:24
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    My notifications were gone too... but thankfully they were not deleted... I found them moved to chat :) chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/126306/… @SethuSrivatsaKoduru
    – R. Kaushik
    Jun 10, 2021 at 13:37
  • 1
    Wow wonderful! Thanks a tonne! @R.Kaushik Jun 10, 2021 at 14:17

There are two elements here, vedas and varnas. Tantras choose vedas to be the principal and not varnas. Thus we often come across a qualitative approach to definition of a Brahmin. For instance,

In Sarvollāsatantram (Matrikabedh tantra) 23rd Ullhasa,

वेदमाता जपेनैव ब्राह्मणो नहि शैलजे । ब्रह्मज्ञानं यदा देवि तदा ब्राह्मण उच्यते॥

Only reciting the vedic Gayatri doesn't make him Brahmin, it's when he gains Brahma-Gyaan.

Also, tantras allow vedic practice. See this . Maybe, the thing about real shruti is having this Brahma-Gyaan. For instance,

Gyaan-Sankuli Tantra says,

न वेदं वेदमित्याहु वेंदेदा ब्रह्म सनातनम् । ब्रह्मविद्यारतो यस्तु स विप्प्रो वेदपारग: ॥

A sculpture is not merely called veda, the Eternal Brahma himself is veda. The one who spends his time in vedic knowledge and wishes for Brahma-Gyaan is vedic Scholar.

In the other answer as well, it's not 'shruti' which is making a Chandala excel Brahmana but the quality or intelligence of 'Kulin',

In the Mahanirvana Tantra, Chapter 4, verse 42:

श्वपचोऽपि कुलज्ञानी ब्राह्मणादतिरिच्यते । कुलाचारविहीनस्तु ब्राह्मणः श्वपचाधमः ॥ ४२ ॥

A Chandala versed in the knowledge of Kaulika doctrine excels a Brahmana, and a Brahmana who is wanting in such knowledge is beneath even a Chandala.

Tantras say this to everyone who are Pashu. For instance,

From the Sarvollāsatantram, 18th Ullhasa,

एते च पशवः प्रोक्ताश्चान्याचारं न जायते। अन्याचारकृतो येन तद्वदामि प्रियम्बदे ॥ ३४ ॥ वैदिकात्‌ तान्त्रिकात्‌ भ्रष्टो नरके पच्यते ध्रुवम्‌ । अथवा पानभ्रष्टो य: स॒ एव पशुलक्षण:। एतेषां ज्ञानमात्रेण कौलिकस्य क्रियाक्षय: ॥ ३५ ॥

These are called Pashus, they dont have any Achara (ethics/conduct). O devi, Listen to what happens to other Acharas, they get depraved and deviate from Vedic and tantric karmas, and dig there paths towards Naraka. Thus the Pashu-Lakshanm. Remembering these, the Kaulik's kriya becomes useless.

कुमारीतन्त्र-कुलकर्म प्रसड्गस्तु पशूनां पुरतः शिवे । कदाचिन्नैव कर्त्तव्यः शूद्रस्य वेद पाठवत्‌ ॥ ३७ ॥

kumari-tantra- Never perform the Kaulik rituals in front of a pashu, its equivalent to a Shudra performing Vedic rituals.

  • 1
    So basically it boils down to the knowledge of Brahman (ब्रह्म) which is being expounded. Jñan, vidyâ and prajña are the real markers. Maybe we can say, that ultimately, a Brāhmiṇa (ब्राह्मण) is one, who has not just read about Brahma-jñana, but also assimilated, understood and absorbed it within too?
    – Vivikta
    May 19, 2021 at 14:35
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    Yes, and infact Brahma-jñana cannot be expressed. It is experienced at a certain superior state of sadhana. Brahmins gain this only through the means of Gayatri (Gayatri is not just a vedic mantra but also has a vamachari tantric use!) @vivikta
    – Proxy
    May 19, 2021 at 16:14
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    @sethuSrivatsaKoduru Actually I took it from the other answer given by R.Kaushik. Maybe I can look into it, to find out the exact sanskrit verse.
    – Proxy
    May 20, 2021 at 1:58
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    @sethuSrivatsaKoduru I have added the verse. Look at the edited answer.
    – Proxy
    May 20, 2021 at 2:32
  • 1
    Wonderful @Proxy May 20, 2021 at 3:00

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