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Since most brahmins particularly those living in urban areas today don't follow the duties of a brahmin , should they be considered as shudras ?

Many of them indulge in degenerate things like alcohal drinking , indulging in premarital sex and other such stuffs.

Can these men be considered as brahmins ?

It is written in multiple places in different scriptures that a brahmin who indulge in degenerate stuffs , be considered as shudras .

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    Yes obviously. Most are just "birth-Brahminas" and reveling with pride and ego for that. The "Real ones" will mostly be 5 % of the total "birth-based Brahminas". In any way, everyone's born a Shudra (... janmo jayate ...) , however, in present times:- Everyone's born Shudras and remain so - by our own "Karmas and gunas". Times are such. But remember: Being a Shudra is not a bad thing. Not being a "basic human" definitely is. – peace May 31 at 1:51
  • Also, Hi. Welcome to HSE.! Please visit How does a new user get started on Hinduism SE?, to get familiar with our site. Have an enriching journey ahead! – peace May 31 at 1:54
  • @Vivikta Yeah but even some actual brahmins who were born brahmin and follows the duties of brahmin indulge in lying and cheating like this - youtube.com/watch?v=RxIkskloCRU He is Devki Nandan Thakur and he apparently lied to one person about a sanskrit shloka. How can such a person who lies and misguide people be considered as a brahmin ? – compaq May 31 at 2:14
  • He didn't lie technically. He did beat around the bush to evade an accountable answer to the question posed. That's kind of not upto the mark. – peace May 31 at 6:12
  • @Vivikta - while 'janmo jayate shudra..' is true, it doesn't mean that everyone is the same level of shudra-tvam. if that were the cause, the "shudra" baby born to brahmins, and the "shudra" baby born to shudras will both be equally talented or eligible for all knowledge and rituals. It just means that birth is necessary but not sufficient to obtain the label of brahmana. – mar May 31 at 19:16
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Yes indeed those Bramhins who don't study Vedas and engage in improper occupations are considered to be Shudras.

But he who does not perform Sandhya Vandana standing in the morning, nor sitting in the evening, shall be excluded, like a Sudra, from all the duties and rights of an Dvija.(Manu 2.103)

A brāhmaṇa who does not repeat the Gayatri mantra is more impure than even a śūdra and that brāhmaṇas who do not offer oblations to sacred fires, who are bereft of sandhya adoration and who do not study the Veda are all śūdras.(Parasara 8.24)

A Brahmana who without studying the Vedas who labors for other things material wealth, position, adoration, and other opulences, becomes Sudra along with all his family members.(Manu 2.168)

Those names which are applied to slaves and dogs and wolves, and (other) beasts, are applied to the Brahmin, who is engaged in pursuits that are improper for him.(MB Shanti 61.5)

That wretched Brahmin, who neglects his duties, and whose behavior becomes corrupt, becomes a Śūdra. The Brahmin, who weds a Śūdra woman, who becomes vile in conduct, or a dancer or a village servant, or does other improper acts, becomes a Śūdra. Whether he recites the Vedas or not, O king, if he does such improper acts, he becomes equal to a Śūdra, and on occasions of feeding, he should be assigned a place amongst Śūdras. (MB Shanti 62.4-5)

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  • correct. birth alone is not sufficient. neither is study alone. nor rituals alone. but birth + study + rituals + Character - all 4 are necessary to be accepted with label of brahmana. Yudhishtira says the same in Yaksha Prashna. – mar May 31 at 19:13
  • Yudhishtira actually said that birth is not necessary at all - "A Sudra is not a Sudra by birth alone nor a Brahmana is Brahmana by birth alone. He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth... Manu has declared, that the mixed castes are to be regarded as better than the (other) classes, if having gone through the ceremonies of purification.. Whosoever now conforms to the rules of pure and virtuous conduct, him have I, ere now, designated as a Brahmana.' " – R. Kaushik Jun 1 at 20:57
  • "It is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse among the four orders... Men belonging to all orders (promiscuously) beget offspring upon women of all the orders... And to this the Rishis have borne testimony by using as the beginning of a sacrifice such expressions as--of what caste so ever we may be, we celebrate the sacrifice. Therefore, those that are wise have asserted that character is the chief essential requisite." - Yudhishtira does not care about birth at all. He knows that race-mixing is going on everywhere and designates anyone as Brahmin @mar – R. Kaushik Jun 1 at 21:04
  • @R.Kaushik - it is almost impossible to ascertain a child's character. but shastras say brahamana children have to do upanayana at age 7, kshatriyas at age 11 etc. also, shudra children cannot (and do not) have upanayana done. does yudhishtira also mention how to ascertain a child's "character" by the time they start schooling ? You cannot read English translations and accept them as axioms. You have to listen to traditional upanyas from scholars who know how to interpret and read between the lines. The cases of non-brahmana birth having brahmana qualities are rare exceptions to the rule. – mar Jun 2 at 5:29
  • "Shastras" don't say that "some shastras" do say that the limit is 24. These are semi-sacred smritis. Gautama Gryha Sutra and other ancient texts state that there is NO AGE RESTRICTION and anyone of ANY AGE can undertake Upanayanam when they feel they initiate their formal studies of the Vedas. And yes it is possible to ascertain a child's character it happened to Jabala and many others. There are countless people who changed their varna & varna-sankara in Hinduism even at an adult age @mar – R. Kaushik Jun 2 at 7:43
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First of all, the present day living hardly supports the Vedic varnasystem. So it is outdated. Secondly, if one is born in Brahman family but does not follow Vedas etc, then why one is Shudra?? S/he can be Vaishya or Kshatriya, depending on the profession.

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Yes. As per Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (Bhāgavata Purāṇa), most of the people in Kaliyuga will become shudra due to lack of knowledge and samskara.

ŚB 12.3.25

तस्मिन् लुब्धा दुराचारा निर्दया: शुष्कवैरिण: ।
दुर्भगा भूरितर्षाश्च शूद्रदासोत्तरा: प्रजा: ॥ २५ ॥

tasmin lubdhā durācārā
nirdayāḥ śuṣka-vairiṇaḥ
durbhagā bhūri-tarṣāś ca
śūdra-dāsottarāḥ prajāḥ

Translation:

In the Kali age people tend to be greedy, ill-behaved and merciless, and they fight one another without good reason. Unfortunate and obsessed with material desires, the people of Kali-yuga are almost all śūdras and barbarians.

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  • pls post the actual link of website url that you copy-pasted the above quote from. – mar Jun 2 at 5:25
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    @mar I am quoting verse from scriptures. There is no need to provide like no I think – Sanatan Darshan Jun 2 at 6:08
  • Thanks . Anything from Mahabharat which says similar thing ? – compaq Jun 2 at 9:37
  • @SanatanDarshan - I can also quote something and say it is from scripture. There should be an independent way to verifying that what you wrote here and what is written in books are same. It doesn't cost much to simply post a link to the site from which you copy/pasted the above. – mar Jun 2 at 23:27
  • @mar sir I have the refrence. Now one can easily cross check from Bhagwatam. – Sanatan Darshan Jun 3 at 2:35

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