Were Ganesh and Kartikeya mentioned in Vedas? Is Ganapati Elder to Kartikeya?

Question

Kartikeya was mentioned in the Ramayana, but not Ganapati and his First Adoration in Pujas.

Kaartikeya as mentioned in Srimad Ramayana is the same character as mentioned in Srimad Bhagavad Gita.

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While roaming in the Dandaka Aranya, Sri Rama, Lakshmana, and Seetha enter the hermitage of Sage Agastya. While going to meet the Sage, they saw the designated places for various Devatas.

स तत्र ब्रह्मणः स्थानम् अग्नेः स्थानम् तथैव च || विष्णोः स्थानम् महेन्द्रस्य स्थानम् चैव विवस्वतः | सोम स्थानम् भग स्थानम् स्थानम् कौबेरम् एव च || धातुर् विधातुः स्थानम् च वायोः स्थानम् तथैव च | स्थानम् च पाश हस्तस्य वारुणस्य महात्मनः || स्थानम् तथैव गायत्र्या वसूनाम् स्थानम् एव च | स्थानम् च नागराजस्य गरुड स्थानम् एव च || कार्तिकेयस्य च स्थानम् धर्म स्थानम् च पश्यति | (Aranya Kanda 12th Sarga 17 - 21 Slokas)

Sri Rama entered inside the hermitage and saw therein the sanctus of Brahma, Fire-god, Vishnu, Indra, Vivasvat - the Sun-god, Soma - the Moon-god, Bhaga - one among the twelve Suns, and the sanctusms of Kubera, [Wealth-Management-god, are seen and passed by the three of them, sanctums of Dhaata, Vidhaata - Vedic deities created by Brahma to help Svayambhuu Manu, santucm of Vaayu - the Air-god, and also like that the sanctum of great-soloed VaruNa - the Rain-god who also wields noose, and the sanctum of Gayatri - the presiding deity of gnosis, sanctum of Vasus - eight of them, and the sanctum of cobra's king - aadi sheSa, the divine Thousand-headed serpent that bears this globe on its head, and even the sanctum of GaruDa - the Divine Eagle , and the half brother of aadi sheSa, and the sanctum of Kaartikeya

• chief of gods army, and the sanctum of Dharma - Dharmaraaja, presiding deity of Virtue-Vice-Time of living beings, in-charge of the hell.

Though it was mentioned in Mahabharata that Lord Ganesha himself wrote it when Sage Vyasa was dictating, he did not find place in Bhagavad Gita, as Chief of Ganas (Ganadhipatihi). Why?

Were Ganesh and Kartikeya mentioned in Vedas?

Answer 1

Yes, Ganesh and Kumara both are mentioned in Vedas. Here are the references.

रुद्रो रुद्रश्च दन्तिश्च नन्दिः षण्मुख एव च ।
गरुडो ब्रह्मा विष्णुश्च नारसिहंस्तथैव च ।।
rudro rudrascha dantischa nandi sanmukha eva cha |
garudo brahma vishnuscha narsimhastathaiva cha ||  [Yajurveda Taitteriya Aranyaka 10.1.15]

The names of God mentioned are:
Rudra, Danti, Nandi, Shanmukha, Garuda, Brahma, Vishnu, Narsimha

As you can see the whole first line mentions the name of Shiva family:
i.e,. Rudra, Danti, Nandi, Shanmukh

Shanmukh (six faced) is another name of Kumara.
Danti(tusked one) is another name of Ganesha. It is also evident from this Ganesha Gayatri mantra mentioned in Taittariya Aranyaka of YajurVeda.

तत्पुरुषाय विद्महे वक्रतुन्डाय धीमहि तन्नो दन्ति प्रचोदयात् ।
Om tatpurushaye vidmahe vakratundaye dhimahi tanno danti prachodayat | [YajurVeda Taittariya Aranyaka 10.1.5 ]

We meditate upon Him who has a curved trunk. May the tusked One guide us on the right path.

As you know Vakratunda is a name of Ganesh and it names also Danti (tusked one) at the same time.

Also Kumara Gayatri is mentioned below it in Yajurveda Taittariya Aranyaka 10.1.6

तत्पुरुषाय विद्महे महासेनाय धीमहि तन्नो षण्मुख प्रचोदयात् । tatpurushaye vidmahe mahasenaya dhimahi tanno shanmukha prachodayat.

We meditate upon Him who is great commander (of devas), may Shanmukha (sixfaced i.e., Kumara) guide us on right path.

Yajurveda Taittariye Samhita 4.5.4.1 contains this verse:

नमो गणेभ्यो गणपतिभ्येश्च भो नमो:
namo ganebhyo ganapatibhyescha bho namo |

It means:
Salutations to him who is in (Gana) host and who is in Ganapati (i.e., Lord of host)

Also in Rig Veda:

ॐ गणानां त्वा गणपतिं हवामहे कविं कवीनामुपमश्रवस्तमम् ।
ज्येष्ठराजं ब्रह्मणां ब्रह्मणस्पत आ नः षृण्वन्नूतिभिः सीदसादनम् ॥ [RigVeda 2.23.1]

We call thee, Lord and Leader of the heavenly hosts, the wise among the wise, the most famous of all, the King supreme of prayers, O Brahmaṇaspati: hear us with help; sit down in place of sacrifice.

Although the devata of this mantra is Brahmanaspati Veda scholars use this mantra to summon Ganesha as it satisfies all characters of Ganesh.

Some people also equate Brahmanaspati as Brihaspati. Some also say Brihaspati is aspect of Ganesh. But some debate Brihaspati is son of Angiras. Whatever it may be. We are not here for speculation.

But if we go by Jnana Kanda Marga, then Angiras, Brihaspati and Brahmanspati have special meaning. Here is how Brihadaranyaka Upanishad of Yajurveda describes it.

I-iii-19: It is called Ayasya Angirasa, for it is the essence of the members (of the body). The vital force is indeed the essence of the members. Of course it is their essence. (For instance), from whichever member the vital force departs, right there it withers. Therefore this is of course the essence of the members.

I-iii-20: This alone is also Brihaspati (lord of the Rik). Speech is indeed Brihati (Rik) and this is its lord. Therefore this is also Brihaspati.

I-iii-21: This alone is also Brahmanaspati (lord of the Yajus). Speech is indeed Brahman (yajus), and this is its lord. Therefore this is also Brahmanaspati.

Hence if we go by Jnana Kanda Marga:
 Angirasa= Anga + Rasa
  i.e., Vital fluid of body.

From Vital fluid of mouth(Angiras) comes the speech/Vak shakti (Brihaspati, Brahmanaspati). Hence by Jnana kanda we see them separately. Also Brihaspati is considered lord of Rik and Brahmanaspati considered lord of Yajus.

For the question why Ganesh isn't mentioned in Valmikiramayan. It is because Ganesh wasn't so much popular at that time. He was the chief leader of Gana of Shiva. Kumara/ Kartikeya is mentioned as he is commander of Vedic Gods like Indra. At that time dominance of Indra like God was more as evident from fight between Krishna and Indra when he stopped worship of Indra.

Furthermore if we go by Sabda Brahman Concept people who recite ValmikiRamayan also worship Ganesh. This verse is in Phala Shruti of Yuddha Kanda of Valmiki Ramayana.

विनायकश्च शाम्यन्ति गृहे तिष्ठन्ति यस्य वै ।
विजयेत महीं राजा प्रवासि स्वस्तिमान् भवेत् ।।

Here is the word "विनायकश्च शाम्यन्ति" i.e., Vinayakascha Samyenti. i.e., Obstacles are removed. Although it is not calling Vinayaka. It is just used to denote obstacle. But by Sabda Brahman Concept one doesn't need to be aware of God also when it is chanted as evident from story of Valmiki (i.e., Mara Mara), also evident from story of Ajamila (i.e., Calling his son Narayana). Thus who is reciting Valmiki Ramayana if not aware of Lord Ganesh also then he still worships him. Same case applies in the other mantra where Gods name is used. This is the same reason how the seer of "Gananam tva Ganapatim...." of Rigveda i.e., Grutsduma became a great devotee of Ganesha later.


For the question why Ganesh isn't mentioned in Bhagvad Gita? You have to ask this question to Lord Krishna. Furthermore Bhagvad Gita is only popular in present time, It is just a very small portion of  Mahabharata. It became popular after Sankaracharya wrote commentary on Bhagvad Gita. Before that time Hinduism was dominated by Purva Mimamsha which doesn't go for Jnana marga.

For your question who is elder? As far as I know Vedas don't discuss who is elder. I don't want to cite Puranic stories as you don't believe in them.

Answer 2

As P. V. Kane explains in History of Dharmaśāstra, Vol II Part I, the Gaṇeśa most people today are familiar with cannot be found in the Vedas:

Gaṇapatipūjana

This consists in inviting the presence of the elephant-faced god Gaṇeśa on a betelnut placed in a handful of husked rice. The word Gaṇapati is used in the Ṛgveda as an attribute of Brahmaṇaspati (the lord of prayer or holy lore). The well-known mantra ('gaṇānāṃ tvā gaṇapatiṃ havāmahe' Ṛg. II.23.1) which is used to invoke Gaṇeśa is addressed to Brahmaṇaspati. Indra is addressed as Gaṇapati in Ṛg. X.112.9. In the Tai. S. IV.1.2.2 and Vāj. S., paśus (and the horse specially) are said to be the Gāṇapatya of Rudra. The Ait. Br. IV.4 expressly says that the mantra 'gaṇānām tvā' is addressed to Brahmaṇaspati. In the Vāj. S. 16.25 we have the plural ('Gaṇapatibhyaśca vo namo') and in 22.30 we have the singular 'Gaṇapataye svāhā'. The peculiar features of Gaṇeśa as described in the medieval works, viz. the head of an elephant, pot belly, mouse as vāhana (conveyance) are entirely wanting in the Vedic literature. In Vāj. S. III.57 the mouse is said to be the paśu (animal to be offered to) of Rudra. In the Tai. Ār. (X. 15) there is a verse 'We contemplate Vakratuṇḍa, therefore may the tusked (god) impel us'. In the Gṛhya and Dharma sūtras there is no reference to the worship of Gaṇeśa at the beginning of all auspicious rites. That is comparatively a later cult.

How do traditional Vedic commentators interpret the 'gaṇapati' verses of Ṛg and Yajur Vedas?

Quoting from Y. Krishan's The Origins of Gaṇeśa:

The Vedic bhāṣyakāras or commentators of the medieval period in no case find a reference to Gaṇeśa in the hymns cited above. Instead they interpret gaṇapati in a wide variety of ways:

• as lord of the hosts of gods;
• as lord of all creatures;
• specifically as Indra;
• as Rudra, lord of beasts, especially horses;
• as the horse, lord of hosts;
• as lord of the gathering of women.

These commentaries establish conclusively that the term gaṇapati in the Vedas was not identified with the elephant-headed and pot-bellied Gaṇeśa, and that the word gaṇas did not mean the mischief-making hosts of Śiva's attendants.

It is noteworthy that the Gaṇeśa Purāṇa, iv, 33, long after Gaṇeśa's identification as a Vedic god, makes the direct admission that ṛṣis, or sages, Brahmā, the Vedas, the Upaniṣads, and the six Śāstras do not know the true nature of Gaṇeśa.

Apparently, Skanda too is a post-Vedic god:

Gaṇeśa and Skanda

Skanda, eventually the younger brother of Gaṇeśa, is also absent from the authentic core of Vedic literature. He is named in the Atharvaveda, but in a supplement, pariśiṣṭa, of apocryphal character. He is called a piśāca, and thus a follower of Rudra. To worship him is considered worship of a crook, dhūrtayāga. In texts of the Kushan period he is described as the leader of evil spirits that afflict children, or is associated with the ambivalent Mother Goddesses. In the epic period, on the other hand, he has become the leader of the devas, and fights the champion Mahiṣa. No representation of Skanda in art is known prior to the first century A.D. There is apparently a close connection between the roles of Gaṇeśa and Skanda as one-time gods of evil, who in the end were taken into the Hindu pantheon at a high level.

Several other papers have also been written on this subject:

• Is Gaṇeśa a Vedic God? (Y. Krishan)
• Evolution of Gaṇeśa (Y. Krishan)
• The Origins of Gaṇeśa (Y. Krishan)
• Origin of Gaṇeśa (M. K. Dhavalikar)
• The Origin of the Ganapati Cult (S. M. Michael)

Answer 3

Ganesha and Kartikeya are mentioned in Mahabharata which is considered as part of pnachama veda.

Where is Ganesha included?

"Brahma said. I esteem thee for thy knowledge of divine mysteries, before the whole body of celebrated Munis distinguished for the sanctity of their lives. I know thou hast revealed the divine word, even from its first utterance, in the language of truth. Thou hast called thy present work a poem, wherefore it shall be a poem. There shall be no poets whose works may equal the descriptions of this poem, even, as the three other modes called Asrama are ever unequal in merit to the domestic Asrama. Let Ganesa be thought of, O Muni, for the purpose of writing the poem.'

"Sauti said, 'Brahma having thus spoken to Vyasa, retired to his own abode. Then Vyasa began to call to mind Ganesa. And Ganesa, obviator of obstacles, ready to fulfil the desires of his votaries, was no sooner thought of, than he repaired to the place where Vyasa was seated. And when he had been saluted, and was seated, Vyasa addressed him thus, 'O guide of the Ganas! be thou the writer of the Bharata which I have formed in my imagination, and which I am about to repeat."

"Ganesa, upon hearing this address, thus answered, 'I will become the writer of thy work, provided my pen do not for a moment cease writing." And Vyasa said unto that divinity, 'Wherever there be anything thou dost not comprehend, cease to continue writing.' Ganesa having signified his assent, by repeating the word Om! proceeded to write; and Vyasa began; and by way of diversion, he knit the knots of composition exceeding close; by doing which, he dictated this work according to his engagement. I am (continued Sauti) acquainted with eight thousand and eight hundred verses, and so is Suka, and perhaps Sanjaya. From the mysteriousness of their meaning, O Muni, no one is able, to this day, to penetrate those closely knit difficult slokas. Even the omniscient Ganesa took a moment to consider; while Vyasa, however, continued to compose other verses in great abundance.

Ganesha was the one who wrote Mahabharata by the instructions of Vyasa.

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Where is Kartikeya included?

Krishna said to Arjuna that he is Kartikeya among the commander of forces.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m06/m06034.htm

I am Skanda among commanders of forces.

Skanda is another name for Kartikeya.

Answer 4

I think @tezz has answered vaidik part wonderfully. As for who is the elder one. Different scriptures portrays it differently. I am just answering the Gita part here.

Sri Ishwara Gita Chapter 7.:

मुनीनामप्यहं व्यासो गणानां च विनायकः । वीराणां वीरभद्रोऽहं सिद्धानां कपिलो मुनिः ॥ ७.७॥

Meaning: - Among all the saints I am Vyasa, I am Vinayaka (Ganesha) among all the Ganas. Among the braves Veerbhadra I am and among the proven (bonafide sage) know me to be Kapila-Muni.

I hope this clarifies your queries. Prd..